Why the Higgs and Gravity are Unrelated

One of the questions I get most often from my readers is this:

  • Since gravity pulls on things proportional to their mass, and since the Higgs field is responsible for giving everything its mass, there obviously must be a deep connection between the Higgs and gravity… right?

It’s a very reasonable guess, but — it turns out to be completely wrong. The problem is that this statement combines a 17th century notion of gravity, long ago revised, with an overly simplified version of a late-20th century notion of where masses of various particles comes from.  I’ve finally produced the Higgs FAQ version 2.0, intended for non-experts with little background in the subject, and as part of that, I’ve answered this question.  But since the question is so common, I thought I’d also put the answer in a post of its own.

As preface, let me bring out my professorial training and correct the question above with a red pen:

  • Since gravity pulls on things proportional to their mass to a combination of their energy and momentum, and since the Higgs field is responsible of giving everything not everything, just the known elementary particles excepting the Higgs particle itself its mass, there obviously must be a deep connection between the Higgs and gravity… right? wrong.

Now let me explain these corrections one by one.

When you first learn about gravity in school, you learn Newton’s law: that the force of gravity between two objects, one of mass M1 and one of mass M2, has a strength proportional to the product M1 M2.

But that was true before Einstein. It turns out that Newton’s law needs to be revised: the Einsteinian statement of the law is (roughly) that for two objects that are slow-moving (i.e. their speed relative to one another is much less than c, the speed of light) and have energy E1 and E2, the gravitational force between them has a strength proportional to the product E1 E2.

How are these two statements, the Newtonian and the Einsteinian, consistent? They are consistent because Einstein and his followers established that for any ordinary object, the relation between its energy E, momentum p and mass M [sometimes called “rest mass”, but just called `mass’ by particle physicists] is

  • E2 = (p c)2 + (M c2)2

For a slow-moving object, p ≈ Mv (where v is the object’s velocity) and pc ≈ Mvc is much smaller than Mc2. And therefore

  • E2 ≈ (M c2)2    (i.e., E ≈ M c2 for slow objects)

Since planets, moons, and artificial satellites all move with velocities well below 0.1% of c relative to each other and to the sun, the gravitational forces between them are proportional to

  • E1 E2 ≈ M1 M2 c4

And since c is a constant, for such objects Einstein’s law of gravity and Newton’s law of gravity are completely consistent; the force law is proportional to the product of the energies and to the product of the masses, because the two are proportional to one another.

But for objects that have high speeds relative to one another, or for objects subject to extremely strong gravitational pulls (which will quickly develop high speeds if they don’t have them already), the Einsteinian law of gravity involves a complicated combination of momentum and energy, in which mass does not explicitly appear. This is why Einstein’s version of gravity even pulls on things like light, which is made from photons that have no mass at all. (And it is why gravitational waves — waves in space and time, massless just like light — can be formed by objects that are orbiting one another.) Simply put, the Einsteinian view of gravity (now reasonably well confirmed by experiment) differs significantly from the Newtonian view, and in particular, it is not mass but energy and momentum which are primary. And all objects, not matter what they are made from or how they are moving from your point of view, have energy — so everything in the universe exerts a gravitational effect on everything else. We say “gravity is a universal force” (here the term is not referring not to the universe but to the notion of universality — of complete generality.)

What about the Higgs field being the source for all mass in the universe? This statement, though you will often find it in the press or in glib articles written for the public, is false.

What is the true statement? Well, here is a list of the elementary particles that we know about so far. The massless ones are

  • photons, gluons, gravitons (the latter presumed to exist)

while the ones with mass are

  • W and Z particles
  • quarks: top, bottom, charm, strange, up, down
  • charged leptons: electrons, muons, taus
  • neutrinos: three types (at least two and probably all three with small masses)
  • the recently discovered new particle with a mass of 125 GeV/c2 (which I will assume for now is a Higgs particle of some type)

Now it is true that the W and Z particles, the quarks, the charged leptons and the neutrinos must get their mass from a Higgs field. It’s not possible for them to have masses any other way. But this is not true of the Higgs particle itself.

The mass of the Higgs particle does not entirely come from the Higgs field!

Where does its mass come from? Oh, that’s a long story that ends in a question rather than an answer. I will try to explain it someday. For now, suffice it to say that the mass of the Higgs particle does not have a single, simple, understood source, and the curious feature is that its mass is so small — this is one aspect of the enormous puzzle called the hierarchy problem.

But in any case, the Higgs field is not the universal giver of mass to elementary particles. The Higgs particle itself gets its mass, at least in part, from elsewhere. And it probably isn’t alone. It is very possible that dark matter is made from particles, and these too probably get at least part of their mass from another source. Dark matter is believed by most physicists and astronomers to be the majority of the matter in the universe; it is believed to provide the majority of the mass of the Milky Way Galaxy that we inhabit. The Higgs field likely provides little of that mass.

Other things get their masses from sources other than the Higgs particle. The majority of the mass of an atom is its nucleus, not its lightweight electrons on the outside. And nuclei are made from protons and neutrons — bags of imprisoned or “confined” quarks, antiquarks and gluons. These quarks, antiquarks and gluons go roaring around inside their little prison at very high speeds, and the masses of the proton and neutron are as much due to those energies, and to the energy that is needed to trap the quarks etc. inside the bag, as it is due to the masses of the quarks and antiquarks contained within the bag. So the proton’s and neutron’s masses do not come predominantly from the Higgs field. [Experts: There is a subtlety here, having to do with how the Higgs field affects the confinement scale; but even when it is accounted for, the statement remains essentially true.] So the mass of the earth, or the mass of the sun, would change, but not enormously, if there were no Higgs field… assuming they could hold together at all, which would not be true of the earth.

And black holes, which are some of the most massive objects in the universe, holding court at the centers of most galaxies, can in principle be made entirely from massless things. You can make a black hole entirely out of photons, in principle. In practise most black holes are made from ordinary matter, but ordinary matter’s mass is mostly from atomic nuclei, and as we just noted, that doesn’t come entirely from the Higgs field.

No matter how you view it, the Higgs field is not the universal giver of mass to things in the universe: not to ordinary atomic matter, not to dark matter, not to black holes. To most known fundamental particles, yes — and it is crucial in ensuring that atoms exist at all. But there would be just as much interesting gravitational physics going on in the universe if there were no Higgs field. There just wouldn’t be any atoms, or any people to study them.

Finally, you can ask more technically whether, in the equations that physicists study, there is any mathematical connection between gravity and the Higgs field. The answer is no. Gravitational fields have spin 2 and are described as part of space and time; they interact with all particles and fields in nature. The Higgs field, which has spin 0, only interacts directly with elementary particles and fields that also participate in the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces.

So — the guess that the Higgs has something to do with gravity is natural for a non-expert, but I am afraid it is naive; it comes from misunderstanding both

  1. the Higgs field, which is not universal: it gives masses to most of the known elementary particles but not to the Higgs particle itself, and not to protons and neutrons, dark matter (most likely), or black holes,
  2. and Einstein’s gravity, which is universal and has to do with energy and momentum but not mass directly, and most certainly does pull on protons and neutrons, dark matter and black holes even though their masses don’t come entirely from the Higgs field.

It’s really true: despite appearances at first glance, the relation between gravity and the Higgs is just skin deep.

655 thoughts on “Why the Higgs and Gravity are Unrelated”

  1. http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/mass-energy-matter-etc/mass-and-energy/

    In that article you called the energy locked away in objects mass ” mass energy”, is the “mass energy” that comes from the higgs mechanism the same “mass energy” as a system of two photons going different directions(they have 0 momentum frame, hence a rest mass)?

    Basically what I’m asking is there a fundamental “mass energy” from the higgs mechanism and an emergent “mass energy” from the interactions(potential) and motions(kinetic) of the the systems constituents. Are they the same thing in terms of inertia and gravity? Is it good to differentiate between the two?

    • They’re the same thing. The difference is whether the system of objects whose mass you’re thinking about moves as a unit and can really be called an “object” in and of itself. The two photons from, say, a Higgs particle’s decay form a system whose mass we can talk about, as I did in the post you mentioned. But of course they’re going to go flying apart across the universe and they will have very different futures. By contrast, when we talk about the mass of an atomic nucleus we are talking about the mass of a system that might hold together, as a unit, for seconds, centuries, or billions of years. So a system of two photons is not really what we think of as an object, while an atomic nucleus really is. The same is true of an electron; it’s an object of its own. Even though a Higgs particle or a Z particle exists for a very short time in human terms, it lives thousands of times longer than its vibrational frequency (ν = m c2/h) which I like to call its “heartbeat”, so it too forms an object whose mass can be discussed just like that of a nucleus.

      Gravity will pull on these forms of energy in the same way **as long as they are in the same place**. When a Higgs particle decays to two photons, there is no immediate change in the gravitational effects, because the energy and momentum stored in the vicinity of the Higgs particle have not changed. Once the two photons begin to separate by great distances, however, then the gravitational effects will change, because the location of the energy and momentum has changed.

      • Sir, I understand that Einstein when referring to mass was to advise students to totally ignore the implication into physics invariant mass! This statement steeply troubles me. I understand that the invariant mass is a subject in itself when considering how it interacts with particular reference to gravity implications. Can we consider for one moment Black Holes? We know it is impossible to exceed the value of ‘C’. From earlier para submitted on your fine site you may have picked up that my notion is that light does not determine its own velocity but is determined by the mechanism of expansion of the local universe which just so happens to have this constant opening arbitrary velocity but as a separate unity/dimension? IF, this for one moment could be true then the spin of a black hole may indeed be experiencing a torque against it !! Let us further imagine for one moment that this torque indeed limits the max radial velocity of such a ( rest mass i.e. place it on a static scales ) heavy object. But because this body has a high rest mass and may indeed be rotating at very high sub ‘C’ values a few interesting things may occur: 1. Because of its spin value ( high angular momentum ) will actually cause its mass to increase – we both know that is correct. I cannot calculate that as i don’t have time or experience with doing such calculations – but in principal it should be pretty straight forward – invent a huge static mass and multiply by its angular momentum – something like that? So we now have 2 clear conditions a. the invariant mass and b. its actual – virtual mass which is variant. 2. Should a very heavy object such as this could it indeed be creating a virtual black hole as a deformable ( shrinking body )? By that I mean its invariant mass is inadequate to cause a very deep gravity well sufficient to pull in all the stars in a galaxy. But because of its angular momentum it is actually providing a much greater gravity which is? 3. IF, such a torque does exist then as it rotates the invariant mass will necessitate it to get heavier. This increase in mass/gravity will undoubtedly cause it to become smaller as the variant gravity will simply cause it to shrink in diameter. IF, this is the case then the angular momentum will also have to increase – which means greater radial velocity. 4. IF, my notions have any basis and the universe does indeed exist as its own entity as a zero dimensional framework creating New Space at the rate of 300,000kms then our black hole has very strict physical limits. Which means it cannot get any smaller as its momentum will simply be too high set against the torque affect of the Primary dimension which i refer to as ‘Ut’ ( universal time ). 5. So we have a situation where the invariant mass in this instance is obliged to increase but cannot. So the next thing which must happen is for the new mass which this black hole is ingesting must be converted back into energy to simply get rid of it ! Which we observe as gamma radiation from the poles – where the angular momentum is much lower than its equator. It is a mass to energy converter – nothing more complicated than that. Likewise a proton must increase its mass as it approaches the value of ‘C’ because we are dumping a lot of energy into it to increase its momentum – but cannot. – Our black hole must convert the mass its eating to energy – this is its only option as it simply cannot get any heavier? I look forward to your reply kind regards ewj

  2. Why wouldn’t there be any atoms without the Higgs field? My first guess is that electrons would be massless, hence move at the speed of light, hence not sit around in orbitals. What’s the real reason?

  3. Now you say G.R.gravity is all about energy and momentum , then IF spacetime is really bending under E and P then what mechanism affect spacetime forcing it to bend if E and P are in some locality ?

    • Einstein’s Equation (also written down by Hilbert) essentially says:

      The properties of space and time are determined by the quantity of energy and momentum to be found there.

      More specifically there is a Riemann tensor that is determined by the properties of space and time
      There is an energy-momentum tensor that is determined by the presence of energy and momentum

      And a particular quantity built from the Riemann tensor is required by the Einstein-Hilbert equation to be equal to the energy momentum tensor, times a constant.

      Gravitational fields are simply manifestations of the shape of space and time; so it is true that gravitational fields are determined by the presence of energy and momentum. Masses of objects appear nowhere in the equation.

      Like all things, the fully correct statement is a bit more complicated (since gravitational fields also carry energy and momentum) but this is the basic idea.

      • “Gravitational fields are simply manifestations of the shape of space and time; so it is true that gravitational fields are determined by the presence of energy and momentum. Masses of objects appear nowhere in the equation.” …

        “So the proton’s and neutron’s masses do not come predominantly from the Higgs field. [Experts: There is a subtlety here, having to do with how the Higgs field affects the confinement scale; but even when it is accounted for, the statement remains essentially true.]” …

        “You can make a black hole entirely out of photons, in principle.” …

        Hello Prof.

        I am sure you have seen this simulation and maybe even better one, (which I would love to get my hands on if you have any links?). http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Black_hole_lensing_web.gif

        It is a galaxy passing through a black hole. And it clearly illustrates you first comment above as to how gravitational fields shape space and time.

        Your third comment, of how a black hole can be constructed entirely out photons, is what I have been trying to convey, unsuccessfully (due to my poor use of the English language) here for some time. “Spinors”, “trapped energy spheres in very tiny spaces”, once I even called them Fermi spheres which you quickly corrected me, thank you.

        If you go back to that simulation and reduce it down to at or below Planck’s scale, and assume the galaxy to be a plane wave of photons and the black hole, well being a very, very, very, very tiny black hole (also made from “entirely out of photons”). Look at the shape of the light going around the black hole, … from flat plane to a precise circle when it coincides with the black hole, i.e. Fourier transform, the full spectrum I may add.

        My point, you can take you first comment and cross out the word gravitational and just say, “fields are simply manifestations of the shape of space and time;” in general, universal.

        The tough part is your second comment about confinement. I once asked if, is understanding confinement the “Holy Grail” of final getting a unification theory postulated? And you replied, no. So allow me to rephrase my question … If one can figure out how these potential “spinors”, “micro black holes”, “trapped photons”, (graviton?) get confined with a stability (life) of potentially infinite time could it not explain the gravitational field and the evolution of the other fields (forces) derived directly from this phenomena illustrated in the simulation?

  4. Well , but what is the causal physical mechanism , i mean what is the cause of the word ( determined ) in 2nd line , i am beyond equations , i talk reality as i know that there are some other equations that say otherwise.

    • Are you talking about what we know? or what various people speculate about?

      Because in the theories where gravity is an emergent phenomena (and there are many of them) the answers are as diverse as the theories themselves.

  5. Can we then go further and say that general relativity has nothing essential to do with ‘particles’ at all; much less with the value of mass we assign to those particles?

    That is, GR is concerned with the distribution of energy-momentum throughout spacetime, and its connection with the geometrical structure of the latter. That we can coherently ‘divvy up’ the energy-momentum into ‘particles’ (elementary or otherwise; massive or otherwise) is of no fundamental concern to this theory.

    • That is certainly true of Einstein’s theory of gravity, which makes no reference to particles at all.

      It is unlikely to be true of the full quantum mechanical theory of gravity to be found in nature, however, where modifications of Einstein’s theory may well depend in detail on the quantum nature of the world.

    • When G.R. was published, it had only recently been established that atoms have a nucleus; protons and neutrons hadn’t been discovered, and Heisenberg and Dirac were schoolboys. That only makes it all the more remarkable, to my mind 🙂

  6. Thanks Matt. This was a really important clarification.

    Another question: Nobody is confident about how to reconcile gravity with quantum theory, yet everybody seems certain that gravity will be explained in terms of ‘spin-2 particles’. Where does this certainty come from?

    • The only things you need in order to know that gravity will exhibit (not “be-explained-in-terms-of”, for this explains nothing) spin-two gravitons is

      1) the world is quantum mechanical
      2) gravitational waves in Einstein’s theory are those of a spin-two classical field

      As long as these two things are true, it’s guaranteed; for in a quantum mechanical world, all waves are made from quanta (which is what particles are — ripples of minimal height), quanta all must have integer or half-integer spin, and the properties of the waves follow from the spin of their quanta. So you can infer the quantum numbers of quanta from the properties of the corresponding waves, without knowing anything else. You can infer from Maxwell’s equations for electric and magnetic fields that if there is quantum mechanics in the world, electromagnetic waves will be made from spin-one quanta (namely photons.)

      To make a full theory of quantum gravity, however, you need a vastly more complete understanding of how all the fields of nature interact with each other. This is where all the mathematical challenges arise. It is the same for understanding what photons do when they interact with matter; you need much more than Maxwell’s equations for that! Quantum electrodynamics (QED) was quite challenging to develop, long after people knew about photons. And quantum gravity will be that much more difficult — but spin-two gravitons will be a part of it, unless quantum mechanics has to be completely revised even for ordinary gravitational waves.

      • If course one does not exclude the continue look for foundational attributes to describing reality just that one does it right. Thanks

    • The view of gravity as a ‘curvature’ of spacetime (itself a rather simplistic analogy of what relativity says gravity is.) is incompatible with QM’s view of it as being made of particles. We know therefore that is is incomplete (Much like Newton’s theories are incomplete.) but it is still useful.

      This is why we use a lot of scientific concepts, such as say gravity relying only on mass, They’re not accurate, but they’re useful analogies or approximations. Even if we do come up with a QM description of gravity it’s likely that you’ll still see the old ‘curved space’ description used because it’s simpler to explain to the layman.

  7. (technical comment)

    Professor Strassler,

    correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that in string theory, there is a connection between gravity and scalar fields. If I start with the Einstein-Hilbert action in D dimensions and integrate over one of the compact extra dimensions, then the dimensional reduction will generate a massless scalar field. The vacuum expectation value of this scalar field controls the size of the extra dimension. So maybe there is a deep connection between the Higgs-boson and gravity.

    • 1) In string theory, everything is related to everything. That’s probably true in any complete theory of the universe. So I’m sure that gravity is related to the Higgs boson in some sense, but it is certainly not the one that comes immediately to most people’s minds.

      2) The massless scalar field that you will obtain by integrating gravity over a compact extra dimension will not have the right quantum numbers to be a Higgs field — this is certainly not an option.

      3) Certainly people have considered more complex possibilities in which the Higgs field and gravity are part of a larger structure in higher dimensions. However, that does not change the fact that there is no connection between gravity’s pull on energy and the Higgs field’s role in giving mass to some of the particles of nature.

      4) In string theory, most particles (not the ones we know about, but others predicted by the theory) are strings in high vibrational states, or Kaluza-Klein partner particles, and these objects most certainly don’t get their mass from the Higgs field.

        • Right — the scalar you mentioned will not participate in the weak interactions (any more than gravity does) and therefore when it has a non-zero value it cannot give mass to the W and Z particles (or to the electron, etc.)

    • Uuuh Reszo,

      you are talking about quite dangerous things that are better not mentioned here, ts ts ts …
      And I dont know why this is, but I somehow feel pinged by this comment 😀

  8. Rezso,

    Good thought. That field is a Kahler modulus and can affect 4d physics, including (e.g.) its vacuum expectation value setting four-dimensional gauge couplings in D-brane constructions. Key: though it is a scalar field and its vacuum expectation value is important for low energy physics, the Higgs boson of the standard model does not arise in this way in string compactifications.

    Cheers,
    P

  9. So is it thought that we have already discovered all of the particles which are massive because of the The Higgs field?

    By “The” Higgs field I mean the one thought to be associated with the recently discovered H-boson.

    I ask this because you of your comment about dark matter getting its mass elsewhere.

    • These issues are in the class of things we’re pretty sure of but not certain (there are loopholes) so with regard to this it would be best to let experiment tell us the answers, rather than impose our ideas on nature.

  10. Professor Strassler:

    Is it possible that if additional Higgs Bosons are found, beyond the conventional 125 GeV one that has been found, that they might provide mass to the gluons and also, possibly, dark matter?

  11. Professor Strassler:

    Is it possible that if additional Higgs Bosons are found, beyond the 125 GeV conventional one that has been found, that they might provide mass to the gluons and also, possibly, dark matter?

  12. Sorry about the double post, I’m having internet connection problems. But I have another concern: Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be contradicting yourself in the article. You state: “The Higgs field, which has spin 0, only interacts directly with elementary particles and fields that also participate in the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces.” But then you go on to say that the Higgs field does not give mass to protons and neutrons. But these nucleons participate in the electromagnetic force as the quarks that make them up are electrically charged 1/3 e and 2/3 e.

    • In regards to your first post, it’s entirely possible there are other Higgs particles out there, and if you check out the post on the known (apparently) elemental particles (If the Higgs field were zero) you’ll see that several are shown. (Reducing down to the one we see due to various interactions.) The thing is, even if there are different Higgs particles, they’re still *Higgs* particles and therefore must have certain characteristics. (There may be other types of ‘photon’ out there say, but if they have spin 1/2, they’re not photons anymore.)

      Thus even if we discover more Higgs particles, they’re not going to do anything different, just do what we know the Higgs does more complexly.

      On your second question, the Higgs field does give *some* mass to protons and neutrons, that is the rest mass of their quarks, about 1/100th of the mass of the proton or neutron. The bulk of the mass is due not to the Higgs but due to the binding energy holding those quarks together. Saying the Higgs gives no mass is wrong, but a very close approximation. Checking out the post on ‘What is a proton’ will shed some light on this.

      • As an addendum, the binding energy is negative, but not all of it can be converted into energy that can escape the system. When a rock falls to the ground gravity turns potential energy into motion that is eventually dissipated as heat, (photons) this radiates away and the system loses energy (And thus mass.)

        But when three (hypothetical) free quarks meet, the binding energy is converted into particles (gluons, quarks, anti-quarks) that cannot escape. Three free quarks would be heavier than a proton (Most of their mass being potential energy.) but only some would be released on binding.

  13. Dear Matt,
    When we go beyond GR and into quantum gravity theories and beyond into the realms of the cosmic grid, ( I am inspired by Frank Wilczek here), an exotic substance that permeates the emptiness is a must to give the properties to the vaccum as we perceive it through the standard model and the general relativity. Wilczek calls it the grid, or you can call it the Brahman from Hindu philosophy or ether (a bad choice due to historical association with the luminiferous ether) or what ever. While this material undoubtedly carries a lot of energy (vaccum energy), this energy also does not influence the energy-momentum tensor of gravity directly although gravity itself manifests through the space time created from this grid.
    Higgs excitation is a phenomenon that can arise in many quantum systems as the natural resonance frequency/excitation of the condensate (such as ultra cold rubidium atoms). Since Higgs field is a property arising from the nature of this exotic grid, and this grid gives rise to space time, understanding the origins of Higgs field is fundamental to understanding the grid itself and thereby space-time and gravity itself.
    What is your take on this

  14. Do we know for certain that the elementary particles with rest mass can not in actuality also consist of more fundamental mass-less particles contributing to their perceived mass just through their internal kinetic energy and binding energy, like protons and neutrons, and thus not need any Higgs field to explain their mass? How is this ruled out?

    • Sure. The only evidence against it is that (A) the current theory works pretty well assuming they’re fundamental and (B) there has never been a hint of substructure in the currently believed to be fundamental particles. But there’s a precedent: hadrons were treated as fundamental particles until the 1970s.

  15. Dear Matt,

    You made the statement (and I have seen this statement being made by other physicists):

    “So the mass of the earth, or the mass of the sun, would change, but not enormously, if there were no Higgs field”

    Numerically, if in the nucleus you would neglect the Higgs generated quark masses, this wouldn’t change the proton or neutron masses much.
    However, the kinetic energy of the quarks enters as mc2/sqrt(1-v2/c2) and here for v close to c the contribution can be much higher than the bare mc2.
    So my question is: can we really neglect the quark masses or is the impact on physics actually to big to make such a simple statement?

    • While being skeptical is certainly “natural”, it is not the opposite of naive. Skepticism and naivety don’t go together well, but that does not make them opposites. You will see naive skeptics every day, doubting well-established concepts and not doubting flimsy theories.

    • It is natural for all individuals to be naive as this is the easiest option; this can be readily apparent when an expert ventures out of their field. Skepticism is something acquired through experience and effort. Many experts lack it, but some develop a general skepticism that they can apply anywhere.

      I myself am not an expert in many things but I have learned for example that anything in a newspaper should be taken with a kilo of sodium chloride.

  16. “… Einstein’s gravity … does pull on … dark matter …” — not according to Milgrom.
    Consider “Focus Point Supersymmetry Redux” by Feng, Matchev, and Sanford
    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.3021v3.pdf
    What are the essential differences between focus point supersymmetry (FP SUSY) and non-FP SUSY? What does FP SUSY (as opposed to non-FP SUSY) help to explain?

  17. Dear Pr Professor Strassler,

    As often your articles are very interesting and very challenging. Thanks for giving us all these deep views in High Energy Physics.

    You say that Higgs field has nothing to do with gravitation. But don’t you think that with a vev of about 246 GeV and so the enormous density energy of this field which permeates all space should dominates the energy content of the universe and then its geometry and gravitionnal behaviour ?

    Alain

  18. Sir, we only have an indication of a Higgs particle. My concern is – the specie they detected may be nothing more than a dipole fermion? Mimicking a higgs? I am nervous about the release of information now from LHC because their claim earlier that they exceeded the velocity of light – thanks to a $1 signal cable! My comfort is that the real information was released and admitted an error. At the current time the higgs remains hypothetical. Any any discussion relating to higgs is also hypothetical also to String theory – we are only discussing ideas about ideas. It can drive one mad. kind regards ewj

  19. So, in the beginning there would be bosons which can go from place to place and electrons which can go from place to place but no place for them to go to or from and nothing to do at those not extant places. Tto localize anything requires an observation which can change a state at some point in space time but there are no observers because everything that can inform is moving at vspeed of light and this has no position to localize in space and time
    So how does giving the Higgs boson mass energy change that in absence of giving rest mass to fermions so that there can be things related to each other?

  20. The charge inside an electron / positron is uniformly distributed. Can it be taken as evidence that it is fundamental and indivisible and so the smallest possible (smallest in the sense of energy rather than Compton radius) carrier of the isolated charge

    • Electrons and positrons appear to be point particles, and measurements have been made that place upper limits on their size if they have one, but this is not ironclad proof that they are in fact no just really, really small composite particles.

      The charge in a proton appears to be uniformly distributed from a distance and only measurements at smaller scales show this to not be true. It is possible that our elementary particles aren’t and that most certainly would be interesting.

  21. Prof. Strassler,

    You say gravity is universal. But you also say that the Higgs and gravity are unrelated, Which seems logic to me if their sources are different. But then, how can you say that gravity is universal if it is not related to everything?

    • ‘Universal’ does not mean ‘related to everything’ but rather ‘is general’ Gravity does not pull of positive particles different from negative ones, nor does it disappear on Saturdays or on the sun.

      Think of a universal adapter that allows you to make an appliance much more general, that is it will work the same way in many different situations.

      • Universal refers to (see above) the notion of complete generality. The source of gravity is unknown as yet, but as stated above this complete generality does not apply to all things in universe. Why?

        • Now that is a question that we as yet don’t know the answer to, at least completely.

          Some things simply can’t be universal, that’s not the way things work. Other things could in theory, but this wouldn’t last long. Others could be, but we’ve experimentally determined that they’re not. Possibly when (if) we can answer that question we will know a lot more about the universe than we do now.

  22. You wrote:
    “Now it is true that the W and Z particles, the quarks, the charged leptons and the neutrinos must get their mass from a Higgs field. It’s not possible for them to have masses any other way.”

    Have you explained somewhere else how we know which particles will get their mass from the Higgs field?

    Incidentally, the 125 GeV mass of the currently detected Higgs (which you refer to as curiously small) is fine for the Standard Model according to John Parsons from Columbia’s CERN team. But not for GUTs of course.
    As usual, this article was very informative and cleared up a lot of the haze! Thanks.

  23. Professor Strassler:
    Doesn’t the non zero vacuum expectation value (vev) of the Higgs field contribute to the vacuum energy? in this way isn’t there a connection between higgs vev and gravity?

    • No. The non-zero expectation value does NOT contribute.

      What does contribute is the potential energy of the Higgs field. That is a *function* of the Higgs non-zero value v. But it is not v itself that contributes to the vacuum energy; it’s the potential energy as a function of v. In supersymmetric theories, you can have fields that have expectation values but contribute exactly zero potential energy.

      Moreover, if the Higgs field had zero expectation value, it STILL would have potential energy that contributes to the vacuum energy.

      So there is no logical relation between the two.

      Finally, there’s no connection between the potential energy from the Higgs and gravity — because gravity reacts to ALL sources of potential energy, and there’s nothing special about the Higgs. For instance, there is potential energy that is generated by the strong nuclear force [this is a complicated subject] and there is potential energy due to quantum fluctuations of all the fields of nature — and gravity reacts to all of them, as well as to the potential energy from the Higgs field, without regard to where they came from.

      • This is a very interesting comment. I must admit that I did not made a clear distinction between vev and higgs potential energy as regarding its contribution to the vacuum energy.
        But I am less convinced by the last part of the argument. There is in my opinion a fundamental distinction with other sources of potential energy, the fact that the higgs field is said to permeate the entire universe, even the vacuum.
        So its contribution to the vacuum enrgy is certainly largely dominant compared to other (known) sources, and it is hard to see how it could be reconciled with the known value of the vaccum energy (or cosmological constant) which is much much lower (10^60 order of magnitudes ?, I don’t know exactly), and it is dominant for the total energy of the universe, hence its gravitionnal (or geometric) properties…

        • Ref fusion:

          Just read this in a wiki lead. Am I mistaken or is this contradictory:

          At nucleus radii distances the attractive nuclear force is stronger than the repulsive electrostatic force. Therefore, the main technical difficulty for fusion is getting the nuclei close enough to fuse.

          If the nuclear force is stronger then why don’t we have fusion a daily regularity?

      • Professor Strassler:
        Thanks for the reply, It helps clear some misconceptions. It is true that gravity reacts to all type of potential energy in the same way as with Higgs but its also interesting to note that (as “Alain” said) the contribution of Higgs field is dominant compared to other (known) sources. This leads to a problem because simple estimates show that the contribution of Higgs field to the vacuum energy density is many many orders of magnitude larger than the measured value of the vacuum energy density and we don’t know how to account for such a mismatch, there must be something (or some mechanism) to cancel this large mismatch.

  24. Prof. Strassler writes: “law of gravity and Newton’s law of gravity are completely consistent…”

    This is absurd. Newtonian gravity is based on an occult force that acts instantaneously, this force is an intelligent virtue that knows how much each particle has mass and acts accordingly, it is occult and supernatural…

    In Einstein, there is no such occult force acting between two indivisible particles instantaneously, in fact Einstein designed his theory to eliminate the occult Newtonian force from physics… As you repeatedly mention in this blog there are no particles in the context of General Relativity and gravitation… what you call particles are all waves. Newtonian gravity and Einstein’s conception of gravity are fundamentally contradictory, how can they be consistent?

    • When the professor notes that they are ‘consistent’ he does not mean that they are the same or that their inner workings are identical. indeed he asks ‘HOW are they consistent?’

      Consistent here is shorthand for ‘Appears to be the same under certain conditions’ When you are dealing with small, slow-moving objects Newtonian gravity, seems to work. If you look closely you see that gravity isn’t instantaneous, that speed affects mass and so on.

      Except when dealing with finicky things like GPS satelites we use Newton’s equations because they’re easier and (very nearly) consistent with Einsteins, much in the same way we still talk about sunrise though we know the earth is going around the sun.

      • Dear Kudzu,

        Any time you repeat official physics party line as you do here you feel self-righteous and confident that you are right and you feel good. But there is always the danger that you may be a Newton apologist believing Newton’s authority without question. I have no doubt that you would be the first to criticize the old scholastic doctors of philosophy who repeated Peripatetic party line as the only truth without thinking. I am worried that you are falling into the same error by arguing by authority, of not Aristotle of course, but of Newton. I think for myself and this is how I think, let me know if you agree.

        If Newton assumed that gravity was instantaneous and he used this occult gravity in his computations of orbits and got good results then we must agree that gravity is instantaneous. But you say that now you know that gravity is not instantaneous under Einstein’s authority. If physics were to be a science, Newtonian gravity will be discarded as promoting an occult force as a natural fact and Newton demoted for faking his computations by claiming to use force in his computations. There is no reconciliation of instantaneous gravity and non-instantaneous gravity. A contradiction can only be resolved by casuistry (a very popular type of argument in physics and in this blog).

        If you look at the Principia you will see that Newton did not use a force term in his computations of orbits, all his computations are geometric. Therefore, there is no such force in nature and it is absurd to talk about Einstein’s gravitation agreeing with Newtonian gravitation (which does not exist).

        Of course, the choice is yours, you can continue to assert Newton’s authority by repeating physics mythology or question Newton and physics.

        The rest of your comment also repeats several physics myths and it is worth answering word by word, and I’ll do that in my blog.

        • It is possible I am a Newtonian apologist, it is something we must always watch out for, biases. But I should also suggest that it is also unwise to assume that I sit here feeling a smug sense of righteousness as I type out things I believe ‘just because’ All of us must be wary we do not fall into the trap of assuming we are right :p

          If you want a brief summary of my beliefs, and (dare I say) the professors, it is this ‘Newton was wrong. but he was nearly right enough that we can use his methods most of the time.’

          When we talk of things agreeing we very seldom mean ‘agree exactly’; usually there is an additional ‘within x%’ hiding away, even if we don’t say it. If you look at previous Higgs Boson posts you will notice the caution there ‘This *looks* like the Higgs Boson’ ‘The experiments agree with it being the Higgs BUT it may just be fluke.’

          If I toss an iron ball in the air I can calculate its path and speed using Newton’s equations and Einsteins. Both agree… within far more than a millionth of a percent. When I measure the actual ball’s path, my fumbling human limitations , not to mention air resistance, introduce far more error. Then all I can say is ‘Both theories agree with the experiment within x%’

          Theories, like people seldom agree 100%. 99.9% agreement is usually good enough if it makes things easier, and later on we can tell the interested ones ‘Well no… that’s not quite right…’

          Also, action at a distance is not an ‘occult force’; we know that entanglement can affect two objects any distance apart instantaneously, no matter how far away they are. (And a number of physicists were upset at this ‘spooky action at a distance’) There’s no good reason for something to not act instantaneously over any distance, and I suggest many people would welcome new physics that allowed such things. (Opening the way for faster than light travel.) An occult force would simply be something that refuses explanation. You will see a lot of this in homeopathy where the catch-cry is often ‘We don’t know how it works, it just does. Stop asking questions.’

        • this is a really silly comment, zeynel, and its style is unpleasant. Talk about sounding “self-righteous and confident”!

          Physics is about making predictions, not about political polemics. Call these things whatever you want (in the Hamiltonian and Lagrangian approaches to Newton’s laws one doesn’t need to talk about forces at all) — in the end, language is used in physics as a tool to help us communicate about the equations and the experiments, which are what actually get used to make predictions. And everyone in physics knows that any given set of equations can be written down in different forms, so there’s no “Party Line” about which form is better than another.

          However, your statements about instantaneous and non-instantaneous are not issues for political discussion; they can be distinguished experimentally. And if gravity were instantaneous, rather than delayed as in Einstein’s theory, I am pretty sure that the slow-down rate of the Hulse-Taylor pulsar would be different from observation. Maybe a gravity-wave expert can confirm this.

          • Professor – actually Parks road is that the college? I had an interview their once I am sure it was Parks road. Where Sir Philip Hirst was a HOD. Many years ago! the only bit i recall is Parks road.

            On the matter of gravity ( time delay ) i.e. the earth will spin off its orbiting rotation into a tangent if the sun suddenly loses its gravity some 8? mins after this catastrophic unlikely event because of the boundaries of ‘C’. Then should we live in a universe where the value Time is homogenous across it eg. ‘0’ or 1? then presumably both events would be 100% instantaneous as if space does not occur at all?

            • I don’t think I entirely understand your question, but no, time is not homogeneous across space; there is no universal clock that we can all use at all places in the universe. Space-time is a pretty complicated thing, in Einstein’s view of it.

              • Gentlemen – can someone advise me how to navigate this brilliant site? Comically – i have been fortunate to receive some communication but i have absolutely no idea where to find the article/return comment for continuity purposes – except the one which appears in the email incomplete as far as in understand. When i click reply it takes me to the top home page and then have to tour down through all the text to locate any return comment. sorry……what am i doing wrong?

              • Sir, I have got it – the replies operate outside your fine website!! Sorry I have to wear spectacles now – and did not see the small print! I am so stupid – even I am astonished by my own stupidity. You are a professor of probably the world’s top university, and as a young man you worked extremely hard, after all that effort, now in one of the most respected educational locations. – ‘Then willing’ to make yourself accessible via your fine & homely website for people who are curious about physics. A great achievement and a brilliant idea for people to make real contact with a very knowledgeable Professor – fantastic idea and thank you – which I am confident you will be rewarded shortly. Which, services extended to ordinary people such as myself provides them an opportunity to ask questions to clear their mind of doubt, about the safe scientific knowledge, and hopefully other questions which are not on so scientifically safe. And forgive me I am in that classification of person.

                Please follow my curiosity: In the time of the primordial ‘big bang’ if there was such a thing, bearing in mind this idiom was the invention of a BBC reporter in the 50’s. Can we safely assume – Pre Higgs or otherwise that the ability of mass simply did not exist? So, if we imagine for one small second a void where it does not ( where that condition may only have been for 1 second nevertheless it still occurred ?) – would you think that what existed in that void can be explained as Euclidian space – small as it may have been? In the absence of any Einstein reference frames? I know this is in the realm of philosophical physics. However, I put it to you it may be a relevant consideration. Then whatever happened in that short lived primordial void ( 1 million linear years or whatever the linear temporal time number is ) was nothing more than a place and ability of mass to happen – with or without a Higgs field!

                So if one can follow that then surely there is an argument which may state that whatever made up that void still exists – just bigger ? 40billion light years bigger? But still a void – which now contains mass existing with its own independent set of rules. But the original void is still extant today but invisible to us as we only see the mass affects in it? As you commented – physics is about questioning then providing a set of mathematical rules to prove the question.

                I look forward to your thoughts – thanks.

              • I am thinking maybe we exist within two time identities ‘simultaneously’ and not know it – and not be argued whether we have a case for one or the other – but find a way of proving such a combination. 1. Homogenous ( symmetrical constant time TC ) Newton’s absolute background notion and 2. temporal where mass must exist providing Einstein/Minkowski ‘temporal variable t ’ – which is alarmingly elastic – but with good reason. If you can think of the (TC+TV) existing alongside each other at the same event moment would mean we would have to exist in 4 spatial realities ( fearful of the dimension word ) if the claim is true. Not to be visualized as a ‘physically’ connected tesseract but 2 independent system species. – the primary one TC provides the homogenous time & space and ability for mass to occupy ‘any space’ and be created in the first place – with or without a Higgs transfer which would infer this to be a somewhat secondary consideration.

                The net result is we end up with a Space ( involving a New Time notion) built as a ‘ simultaneous constant plus variable’. This if I am not mistaken is a mathematical realisation. I can think of a visualization on this: in aviation (my meaning reference is Pi – which is everywhere in physics much like ‘C’ more or less determines mathematically our ability to boil an egg everyday ). An aircraft must follow a flight line horizontal to gravity for passenger comfort ( curvature of earth), which is achieved with the gyro. So it theoretically is ‘constantly horizontal and enjoying level flight’. But at the same time is actually following a constant curve – which is contradictory. So the constant is the level flight ( not bending ) but the variable is the curve in this simple example. This is the first way I can explain this. In reality of course the passengers are never in level flight for the whole trip – just a sensory illusion. It is not a paradox it is possible to be straight and curved simultaneously. Einstein proved that by his simple experiment with the stone in flight from the train. Its flight is doing 2 things at the same time. Reported by the two peoples arguments one on the train and the other on the embankment. Surely we can extend this sense of relativity to time itself by combining these effects? – which could conclude Einstein’s Unification dream? And possibly give reason to TV dilation as it approaches TC at close to ‘C’. plus resolving other numerous mysteries. Thank you.

        • I read it! Yes it’s frustrating but presumably the occult forces will be resolved in the future as we cannot jump the gun! Comprehension is achieved by very small steps of validated rules – one generation at a time. In my thinking time exists as 2 components meaning a constant + variable, but no one is prepared to even consider it, as science like a government is voted in and everything becomes political.

          • I am curious about that assertion; how do you consider time to be two component? At rest an object experiences a steady and irreversible flow of time, and this can be reduced to nothing at light speed, so it seems to me time is one component irreversible. (Though my particular belief is that time is not a dimension and in fact has no real physical existence.)

            • FANTASTIC!!! Thanks – yes that’s right! also very much in my mind. I think possibly Minkowski put us all on the wrong track here! Time is a variable – how can you have a variable dimension? A box has 3 Euclidian sides one can vary any of its lengths but you can’t vary the quality of the dimension. It either exists or it does not. You cannot remove or modify x, from x,y,z and still call it a uniform box.

              TVariable + TConstant. The simplest way I can explain what is in my mind and NOT use pages of text is by the following expression: Ut, x, y, z + temporal time. Where ‘Ut’: is Universal time = ‘0’ or 1. And has a dynamic which is the expansion of the universe in the hubble zone of 300,000kms as defined by our thinking of temporal time. X, y, z is our regular 3D and observed variable time which can only exist if ‘Ut’ exists first – hence my meaning that this is our Primary spatial dimension. And why I am so curios about the applicability of STR and GTR in a matter free void as per the beginnings of the BB as a plausible route to prove this 4D. = TC + TV notion.

              Horizon Problem – is maybe a good visualization? The universe is some 40 billion light years in diameter – apparently? The temp everywhere is the same. Astonishing as that is but amazingly the same at its outer reaches across this huge distance AND impossible to achieve an INFORMATION based equilibrium by our current understanding of universe! BUT it does this is astonishing. IF, we have a time constant background in the universe then distance is irrelevant. Just in thinking of Newton’s Speed = d/t. If the time is zero or 1 the speed travelled is instantaneous. This is how the universe could possibly achieve such equilibrium in this example, which hopefully is an introduction for the 4D credence?

              Light speed – With ‘Ut’ TC = 0. As TV by virtue of a moving body through x,y,z as it approaches light speed it actually is approaching time ‘0’. An introduction to this notion is atomic clocks. The moving body is approaching phase time with the background constant TC. In order for an atomic clock to read zero on its counter it is obliged to move at 300,000kms. This is another introduction to the possible validity of the notion of a Primary dimension and its dynamic and we continually ignore it – or possibly not even thought about?

              • That relates somewhat to how I believe the universe works; to quote someone who says it better than me:

                ‘The quantum state of the universe really does evolve in time — i.e. the Hamiltonian is not zero, it truly does push the state forward in time. … A wonderful and under-appreciated consequence of quantum mechanics is that, if this possibility is right (the universe truly evolves), time cannot truly begin or end — it goes on forever. Very unlike classical mechanics, where the universe’s trajectory through the space of states can bring it smack up against a singularity, at which point time presumably ceases. In QM, every state is just as good as every other state, and the evolution will go happily marching along.

                As the quantum state of the universe evolves, it can pass through phases where it looks an awful lot like “nothing,” conventionally understood — i.e. it could look like completely empty space, or like some peculiar non-geometric phase where we wouldn’t recognize it as “space” at all. And later, through the relentless influence of the Hamiltonian, it could evolve into something that looks very much like “something,” even very much like the universe we see around us today.’

                In short, there was a time before the big bang where there well could have been no space. It’s speculative at this time, but I hope it’s true. (It’s my pet hypothesis.)

                • Interesting – now on the trail of Hamiltonian vision.

                  Incidentally I have printed a book March 2012 near and around this subject ut,x,y,z. No one will be the least bit interested in it. But at least I have these ideas on paper. I have followed your reasoning thank you.

                  Why can we not have 2 Spaces simultaneously after all we have 3 dimensions in one of them? Then Newton and Einstein are both correct? Then should Einstein have had the notion that we exist in 2 spaces then perhaps he could have had a successful outcome to his search for the Unification???

                • I am not entirely sure what you mean by ‘two spaces simultaneously’; I think it would be quite difficult to have two things occupy the same space, especially if the things *were* space. Putting aside multiverses aside, possibly you mean something similar to ‘branes’; 3\4D spaces embedded in a higher dimensional space, also known as part of M-theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrane_%28M-theory%29

                • To get across a river I need the ability of stepping stones. I cannot jump! The concept of parallel universe may well be applicable to the intuition of 2D of time. We can mix oil and water together forming a homogenous liquid ( x2 space-times )so they occupy the same space but they still exist as separate materials. ( forgetting the ability of chemical emulsions for the moment). Rather than parallel universes I prefer to think of an artist’s palette. The board is only providing a means onto which the paint maybe applied. ( matter in this case ). But in this instance the palette is actually creating the paint!

                • So are you speaking of two dimensions being part of the same space, or two different, unconnected spaces occupying the same location? You say they mix which suggests to me dimensions, much like our three spacial dimensions are mixed into the three directions we know.

                • Hi Kudzu – I have to be very careful which basic physical descriptors I use – in fear of creating confusion – then later change the way I describe it because I have found better descriptors. When we think of dimensions, like time ( in my mind ) We are somewhat fixed in our interpretation of them, and these interpretations are not necessarily clear anyway. Although concept of a dimension is clear and simply means size. I suppose my intuition could be more to do with metaphysics than physics as we are obliged to use valid physical terms which mean things. Forgive me I am sounding a bit like politician here!!

                  Intuition of the primary parent of ‘space + time’:

                  My meaning essentially, Is we have 1 primary parent unit of space + time and it is has a construct in 2D. ( which infers size which I am actually not too bothered about as relevant as it infers measureable distance ). One may visualize it as a 3D boundary + Time symmetrical isometric internal framework. This 3D space is ‘confining the captive unity of time’. The boundary in this case has a dynamic. I have no proposals for measuring that dynamic other than it is expanding outwards. But as a result of that dynamic it causes the isometric framework to stretch orthogonally at a velocity of 300,000kms. The outcome of this stretching means that the parent is creating ’New Internal Space constantly. This differs from our understanding that new space is being created at the boundary! My meaning is that space it is being created across the entire diameter in the isometric.

                  The offspring framework ‘spacetime’:

                  I use the term offspring, and not parallel. Humanities experience of spacetime is the offspring. It exists within the framework of the isometric parent. Both are valid. Occupying the same space and boundary. ( Hubble zone only in this instance = ‘C’ ). The subsequent creation of matter within the parent causes it’s unique identifiable Space ( spacetime ) and it’s relevant dimension = Cartesian/Euclidian zone).

                  Now you may feel jelly bubbles as I did when I first had this notion. Nature does things in a very regular way which contains irregularities. ‘A baby is created within the confines of it’s mother’ – I think that describes the meaning best!

                  Yes they occupy the same space, as 2 separate entities.

                • I see. I would describe that as being two different aspects of the same space, so I guess that’s where the confusion sets in with me.

                • Sure, description is one thing visualization is the other. The challenge is have I provided a visualization for you, and could you describe it back to me using your description. That way we both can confirm a common understanding?

                • “In QM, every state is just as good as every other state, and the evolution will go happily marching along. As the quantum state of the universe evolves, it can pass through phases where it looks an awful lot like “nothing,” conventionally understood — i.e. it could look like completely empty space, or like some peculiar non-geometric phase where we wouldn’t recognize it as “space” at all. And later, through the relentless influence of the Hamiltonian, it could evolve into something that looks very much like “something,”

                  Could it be a simple reciprocation of ‘Being Able’ ( the realization ) of one state then reverting into another like a light it is either on or off or 1 or 0. at the moment 1 ! It can switch the ‘1’ state ‘on’ where matter can form. When the light goes off – all of the light goes off not just a part of it !! At the current time the light has been on for 14 billion years ! A big crunch this could only occur in the ‘1’ state – and should it start to collapse it may not complete its collapse because suddenly the entire state be switched off again???

                  In short the primary spatial provides a means for matter to exist or not centered around the number of 300,000kms. Things move with ‘0’ time or a variable if 1 is on!

                • We should not think of this Hamiltonian as being something that can instantaneously affect the entire universe and just ‘turn off’ matter; it must evolve, that is, change gradually and logically from one state to the next. The big bang seems like quite a sudden change, but it started out small and followed from there. So no need to worry about mass being ‘switched off’

                  It seems however our universe will not ‘big crunch’ but will keep expanding faster and faster to a ‘big rip’ where it will become essentially an empty void (once more?)

                • I going to study Hamiltonian theory….it sounds like I am naively promoting someone else’s idea and not know it? Having said that I am using Newton’s on the basis that space is an background absolute, I am also using Einstein’s declaration that it isn’t.

                  Yes, then on this subject I am also troubled with another notion where the Big Rip could actually be a huge expanding concentric hole caused by the centre sheering then the universe at that stage actually becomes a flat ring? Which continues to expand and become a thinner and thinner ring. And here on earth in the night sky we see absolutely nothing everything has vanished ( we are permitted the solar system but that may rip as well – probably ). But we continue to remain part of that rarified system. We continue to expand but curve back on ourselves and all our space partners reappear and get alarmingly closer. Which infers ( standard geometry of curved space ) that this system commences its collapse and finally meet up as a single lump of matter! I prefer not to think as another big bang, I prefer the switch off principal – just in thinking about Planks theory and caused by the universal adjustment to the value ‘C’. Although that is not what he said – I am just relying on his theory as a mechanism to achieve the switch off process. So in thinking of the Ancient Egyptian ‘Duality Principal’, we have 2 futures. 1. Is the rip and collapse and or 2. The switch off.

                  Evolution of anything is provided by the ability of linear time !?

                  I am worried now about my possible naivety and have to study your Hamilton reference, unless in your greater knowledge advise that whereas, these intuitions are not strictly safe – but could be plausible?

                • The big rip does not occur at one point in space, nor expand out say at light speed, but since it is due to the expansion of space (and thus all space) itself, it occurs across the entire universe at once. This would make smaller and smaller structures unstable as the expansion increased, first galaxy clusters would fly apart, then galaxies, then stars, until eventually atoms themselves would not be stable.

                  Your ‘loop theory’ sounds interesting, but I cannot see it working as the expansion of space tends to make our universe’s spacetime flatter, as it accelerates spacetime becomes indistinguishable from a perfectly empty and flat universe whereas what you describe would seem to require a closed (curved in on itself) universe where all matter was moving away from one point (To curve around on itself and all meet at another point ‘opposite’ the initial expansion point.)

                • It’s all conjecture but fun – the periphery of the universe is supposedly moving away faster than we are locally expanding at ‘C’. We don’t really know where we are located in the big picture – centre of to the left up or down? As the periphery moves away it is causing us to get flatter as I understand? Flatter and flatter! Until it becomes a disc anyway I guess? Then as this flat disc continues to expand the diameter – yes the rip may be catastrophic degeneration of things? But presumably what happens to the disc which now has no matter in it still exists even tho we don’t? IF, you uphold no matter no space then the whole lot goes! Agreed.

                • The periphery of the universe is an interesting subject; according to inflation most of the universe is still inflating madly, expanding far faster than c. (The ‘calm’ patch we are in where inflation has ended can only expand through new space at a rate of c, this is a disturbing feature of inflation.) Eventually of course more and more of the universe will be moving away from us faster than c. And our position in the universe, if that’s even meaningful is not known, there’s no way to tell.

                  It’s not the periphery moving that makes space flatter, but the expansion of all space, diluting matter. When the universe was young, it was very dense, and all that matter curved space a lot. But as it has been expanding there is more and more flat nothing between the matter in our universe. As the expansion speeds up more of the universe will be empty space until it’s almost impossible to distinguish it from a truly empty universe.

                  Our universe will never become completely flat, all the matter it has now isn’t going anywhere, it’s just being diluted like a drop of dye in a swimming pool.

                • Dilution. The distribution of matter in the universe, how it is arranged is mostly being controlled by gravity now, which is clumping together matter into stars, star clusters, galaxies and so on. But as this happens the average density of matter in the universe is decreasing thanks to the expansion of space.

                • Forgive me in advance – this is not a glib response, nor a religious one. When the baby has spend months concerned with growth and cohabitation with its mother – it must be born or both will peril – all species including egg makers – excluding infinitesimals – they are always a problem! – that is everyone’s observation of life, we are defined by the ‘Big Rythym’ – of nature and we cannot ignore ‘any’ of its clues to get closer to a meaning not just the stars ( glamorous as they are )- that is only a part of the picture. Stepping back from the picture gives us a different view. Looking at one square inch of it how can we ever now it the picture is a portrait or a landscape? Other than to learn is comprises oil or water paint? Then spend a long time arguing if all the painting comprises one, the other or both?

                  Nature does what it does – and it’s patterns are everywhere – Darwin had his ideas and we hung our coats them for a long time. If matter is diluting ( privately that is ok ) we are ageing. That in itself infers a history – and beginning. Whether it be the BB or not. And in your earlier reference ‘ Hamiltonian’ then he is correct. And evolution must occur. This is sounding so pedantic – I’m really sorry.

                  In all of us there exists our own unique energy, which in part makes what us all individuals. In the entire evolution of homo sapiens that too has a common energy. Driving it to develop and evolve in its unique characteristics.

                  In my mind if matter is diluting that would seem a perfectly logical outcome of what it is doing, whether we understand the physics or not. Returning to my eccentric example at the top – if the universe needs to remove us because we are too old – that is what will happen and this is the way it happens. And our experience is concluded. But, I am also privately ok with the idea that this experience is not unique. Furthermore, I am also privately ok with the idea that all information has been recorded, every atom, phases of evolution, and every universe and its unique experience.

                  In the duality : Why?

                • 1. “ Virtuality” , the quality of having the attributes of something without sharing its (real or imagined) physical form.

                  2. Photon gravity: If a black hole gravity field is so strong that light cannot escape itself, light must have mass?

                  3. If photons are the cause of a BH gravity, and yet have no mass. Then the affect they have on orbiting bodies is based upon it not having any real mass. But one which is created only by their dynamics.

                  The subsequent density is not real its affect is?

                • I see. Firstly you must remember, gravity acts on energy, not mass. Photons have energy, so are affected by gravity and cannot escape a black hole. It may be easier to think of black holes geometrically, as warps in spacetime. If a hole is too deep, nothing can get out of it.

                  I think this is what the professor was referencing when he noted a black hole can be made of photons (Thus have no mass.) but still have a strong gravity field.

                • , “gravity acts on energy, not mass”

                  Yes thank you I must keep this fixed in my mind. My knowledge on this is muddled. I am easier about the visualization and the 2D warp and may in fact be infinitely deep?

                • That’s been the traditional way of looking at it, especially in the media. But it doesn’t need to be infinitely deep, just deep enough to trap lightspeed particles. Imagine a (non-flying) bug crawling on the surface of a balloon; no matter how much it crawls about it can never get off the balloon, that’s just the geometry of things. The balloon doesn’t have to be infinitely small (And thus infinitely curved.) Just as long as it’s round.

                  Likewise a black hole doesn’t need to be infinitely dense or curve space infinitely, as long as it curves it *enough* that light cannot escape it.

                • Agreed. I like your bug Idea on the balloon. The balloon in this case the invisible universe fabric and he is only concerned with his own 3D universe as he carries out his business stuck in it’s 2D vacuum surface. The bug doesn’t realize yet, the existence of the plane of time which the whole of it’s body is immersed by function of the balloon’s existence. He wants to get to the top of the balloon and is only concerned with measuring his own relative time as he moves. His case is hopeless because the balloon is enlarging far faster than his ability to travel, but he is not too bothered because everything appears constant immediately around him. He notices strange things happening as he moves. Then refers them as Warp, Ether, Entanglement and Gravity because it is beyond his ability to imagine what can cause these observations. Although, he is more satisfied with gravity because it is something which he can measure. And he continues with his journey. Then he muses if two or more things are instantaneously synchronous as there is zero time for information to pass between them. So he uses his imagination and concludes they must be in the same place ( not even contiguous contact ) – a plane of time where measureable distance does not exist. But he remains confused because he can measure in his 3D world the distances between them.

                • “Well I assumed that the black hole was incredibly dense mass, which it isn’t and to be frank I don’t know what it is. Some say it is an infinitely tiny point, which would thus be spinning infinitely fast, yet still have the star’s finite rotational energy.”

                  Indeed, this was my initial realisation a few days ago until we started exchanging ideas, As a result of information thanks to you & Matt I have modified my cognition. I now see them as massless entities but because of their invisible internal dynamic, they are only creating the appearance of a mass which simply does not exist. It’s only created by virtue of their massless internal clockwork. One could say an external physical illusion but its affect is more than real. Thanks

                • Indeed, but I would be careful there too; I always thought that information was destroyed in a black hole, whatever made it didn’t matter, but it seems I am wrong here; if mass goes into a black hole, the black hole has that mass, somehow. Do not not ask me how this works, I don’t know myself, but apparently when a black hole evaporates away via Hawking radiation, it releases everything that made it. (And only that.)

                • Synch notion of suns.

                  Actually the stars are in synch in a way caused by the uniformity of the value of ‘c’ through them all . Hence, any non uniform energy production ( sun spots ) – is my interest, as this presumably could infer the non uniformity of ‘C’ – and not simply an occult value – which is a phrase I have just learned! So if there is a small blip in the Ut TC expansion it affects everything simultaneously, and the only way of detecting it is via energy producing solar masses ( excluding nuclear power stations ) ?? Or just leave the LHC running for a few decades at full power and see if there is a reliably detected variation in proton orbital time?

                • The problem with that is that stars are different. Imagine I had a large stove with pots of water boiling on it. Some are small, some large. Some I have just put on, others have been sitting there for hours. Now suppose I ask ‘Since the water in them is all the same as is the stove heat, are they in sync?’

                  Each pot’s boiling is partly random, partly due to water and heat and partly due to the pot’s size\boiling time. I can’t expect to see any synchronization of the bubbles in even very close pots, (if I did that would be big news) or even whether pots close to each other had boiled yet or boiled dry.

                  If the stove heat was turned up or down, synchronization again wouldn’t tell me. but if I had enough pots I would be able to work out how they boiled and what they should be doing. Then if the stove heat changed I would notice pots were not boiling as they should and would be able to calculate just what had happened.

                  The value of c, as well as other ‘universal constants’ affects many things, and we have many stars and galaxies to observe. We have looked out at the universe and determined what a star is made of, how old and heavy it is, how massive and more just by looking at its light. (For example, every element emits a certain spectrum of light, sodium gives you the orange in street lamps say, and by looking at starlight we can thus see what elements are there.) This has allowed us to ask ‘Is this constant different in that part of the universe?’

                  For the most part we can be sure the universe is the same billions of light years (and actual, time years) away as it is here, with more than 99.9995 accuracy. Section 6 of this Wikipedia page gives a brief overview of how the ‘fine structure constant’ has been measured using distant start-stuff and claims that it may have been a tiny bit different in the early universe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant

                • Sorry – lot of little messages ….or maybe that information is already available from Nuclear power stations? I wonder if they can account for any history of unknown or unaccounted for synchronized drop in power . i.e. France -1.2 watt, UK -1.2 watt, Russia -1.2watt, USA – 1.2 watt etc: on the 15th March 1964 @ 1235.8593 hrs ? Since 1952 no matter how small, if all the NP stations records can illustrate such a synch drop then that would be more than interesting would it not, the ice cream would be the looking at sun records and if also in common synch!! ‘Wowee we have a primary dimension.’ on the basis of invisible information passing between them. There would be no way of getting out of that one!

                • “here is where the kinetic energy begins to approach and then exceed the ‘rest mass’ energy (and I believe that spacetime itself is dragged about by a large rotating mass.)”

                  Your earlier comment above. So in short does this mean the kinetic energy can produce more gravity than it background rest mass?

                • Yes, since gravity depends on energy and you can have as much kinetic energy as you want, any object made to move fast enough will have more kinetic energy than mass energy. (And for massless particles like photons all their energy is their momentum.)

                • Excellent news – thanks. But in our earlier we discussed the relationship between variant and invariant mass. So we can have situation that the mass increase is trivial but the kinetic increase is massive! So the current thinking black hole centres are photons with huge momentum – gravity generators! So now what is the link between gravity and time?

                • You may have misunderstood something; energy and mass are equivalent in many aspects. If I take a proton and accelerate it, it will get more energy and thus get more massive. Any object moving fast enough will be getting most of it’s ‘variant mass’, as you put it, from its kinetic energy, but it will act as if it weighs a lot, not as if it weighed the same as when it started.

                  For example protons in the LHC are as massive as an entire atom of tin, so only a small amount of their energy is mass, but gravitationally they act quite a bit heavier than their rest mass would suggest.

                  And everything with energy generates gravity, that’s one of the unique things about gravity. Black holes are just very dense and small so you can get very close to them where the gravity is very strong . If the sun became a black hole the earth would still orbit it exactly the same, but you could pilot a spaceship within a few miles of it, whereas the sun as it is now you start sinking *into* it at about half a million kilometers away. (Once you sink into an object gravity decreases until right in the middle of it you are weightless, roughly speaking.)

                • “You may have misunderstood something; energy and mass are equivalent in many aspects. { I understand that from the energy mass equivalence expressions } If I take a proton and accelerate it, it will get more energy and thus get more massive. { I understand that – and potentially infinitely massive – providing availability of infinite energy } Any object moving fast enough will be getting most of it’s ‘variant mass’, as you put it, from its kinetic energy { Yes agreed } , but it will act as if it weighs a lot { Yes understood } , not as if it weighed the same as when it started { Understood – I am ok with that } For example protons in the LHC are as massive as an entire atom of tin, so only a small amount of their energy is mass { Understood } , but gravitationally they act quite a bit heavier than their rest mass would suggest { Yes understood – meaning their new kinetic energetic state ?} . And everything with energy generates gravity, that’s one of the unique things about gravity { Yes I understand }. Black holes are just very dense and small so you can get very close to them where the gravity is very strong . If the sun became a black hole the earth would still orbit it exactly the same, but you could pilot a spaceship within a few miles of it, { The hierarchy problem? } whereas the sun as it is now you start sinking *into* it at about half a million kilometers away.

                  (Once you sink into an object gravity decreases until right in the middle of it you are weightless, roughly speaking.) – Yes I understand , if I drilled a hole right through the earth I would accelerate initially at 9.8m/s at the surface some 18000 miles from the centre, and as I fall to that centre the force on me would be ( reducing ). So I am actually slowing down! the further I fall. I used to think that I would wiz past the center due to the momentum – and then arrive at the opposite face – a few metres short – so I could get from one side of the earth to the other without using an aeroplane !!

                  Actually a few years ago I had an engineering project in the Cumberland mine – it is the deepest mine in Europe some 5000 ft vertical shaft – if I recall correctly. On the basis that I am closer to the centre at that time should have I weighed myself – then the scales would have been contrary to the surface scales?? Apart from that it was an enlightening experience going deep under the biological skin of the planet!

                • The heir achy problem has nothing to do with black holes, at least in the way you’re thinking.

                  If there was a way to drill a hole through the earth and stop air getting into it, and you jumped down that hole, you would indeed be able to ‘whiz past the center’ all the way out to the other side. What gets less on your is the force of gravity and thus how *fast* you accelerate, not your speed. If you had air in your earth-tunnel, that would slow you down quite a bit so that you would quite quickly stick in the center.

                  The earth’s radius is 6 thousand kilometers or so, even your mine doesn’t get 10 km down. (And interesting note, the rocks at the bottom of your mine still have bacterial life in them!) meaning that you’re not hitting even 1% of the distance to the earth’s core. A little rough math tells us the scales, if very accurate would be different, but even sweating, wearing different clothing, being dirty or clean, etc would change your weight by more, not to mention the fact that your weight on earth varies all over the place (Less at the equator where centrifugal force is strongest, greater under masses of dense rock or closer to sea level and so on.) Indeed, the differences of gravity across the earth can be used to make useful maps.

                • I understand. Yes and sherpa tensing on top of everest? 30,000ft? could float away in slightest breeze!! Comically.

                  Actually the mine yields potasium and sodium salt. The strata is pre Devonian??? – a time before life. I may be confusing dates and geologic times – I knew the details at the time. The engineering techniques were extremely simplistic – so simple made me sweat with fear. I am not sure if bacteria could be present in pure salt in that era?? Could that be possible? Also – ref osmotic differential etc. I am sure it was 5000ft. vertically down and yes momentarily semi weightless. They could not drop me into the hole but the next best thing was the feeling of floating inside the shaft elevator. It was Boulby mine not Cumberland mine – sorry about that – anyway the link below.

                  Is there really bacteria so far down in life supporting material? How far down can it be found? That’s amazing….

                  Should I indeed get stuck in the centre then the first 1000 Kms I could probably jump! On my return to the surface! Comically.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulby_Mine

                  Now looking at the heir achy problem

                • What is interesting to me is that the bacteria that seem to be in all the rocks we look at to quite a remarkable depth. They have spread there instead of being buried or dating back to the time the rocks were formed. This article gives a layman’s introduction to recent developments in the field of ‘deep biology’ Basically, if you can get any kind of water diffusing into rocks, it seems you’ll find life. http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc97/3_29_97/bob1.htm

                  The salt may impact this, but from what I’ve seen of life and the ubiquity of salt domes I’m guessing something would survive, even in salt.

                • Time

                  TC + TV : Yes my meaning is co habitant and co existent, but I make statements which I am not sure about!

                  & Universe

                  The problem is, if the above is plausible, that is not the end of the story. The ancient Greeks where truly a Great race. In this sense two of it’s great philosophers where at constant discord regards the implication of dualities ( I can also think of Newton and Einstein here ) . If one is at a point where one felt uncomfortable about an understanding or analysis of something, one could imagine or propose the opposite – by extending the imagination. Then potentially establish a place of cognitive comfort. The problem with that is that this new place of comfort ALSO has a duality! So it is endless, by this they meant no matter what you think is a solid solution is tearfully nefarious – that solution has another expressible form and so on….that is really wicked! which means we could never understand anything fully!! Hence my earlier meaning of stepping stones. This concept could be extended to String theory, what is the duality form of this new notion?

                  Black hole & Gravity Fun thinking:

                  If we made a tunnel through earth as per our earlier, and as you say we evacuated 100% gas atoms. We sealed off its 2 ends 100% hermetic. Then released a heavy ball ( say equivalent tonnes of the earth nice big mass to make it interesting, and the Earth is not rotating ( angular momentum )). ( Ignoring the fact that they may want to instantaneously collapse into each other ).

                  The heavy ball accelerates initially away from the surface. It gains momentum. It then enjoys a very long time of reciprocation, returning to its original point of release etc. Going up and down passing the centre where there is zero gravity, and the ball becomes weightless momentarily. So the ball will have more gravity than the centre as it passes. Then from the balls point of view the ball will be trying to collapse the Earth !? What would make of this situation?

                  So in a black hole if we have a colony of atoms ( or sub atomic species ) they are all subtending to a common internal gravity. The entire colony of particles all pass the centre and transmit this gravity to the common centre. Surely, the outcome is they are all participating in the creation of the final quantified gravity of the entire system? It is not a perpetual gravity engine!? = the more particles = more gravity. Or less particles but greater internal velocity??

                • In your ball example, the interesting thing is that any two masses always exert the *same* gravitational force on each other. You are exerting the same gravitational force on the earth as the earth is on you. (However while the Earth’s force is concentrated on small you, your force is spread over the entire earth.) What matters is the unbalanced force. At the center of earth there is still a lot of gravitational force, only it is all pulling in different directions to give a net unbalanced force of zero. (The earth will be trying to pull the ball outwards in all directions and yes, the ball would be trying to pull all of the earth inwards in all directions.)

                  With a black hole things are different. This is because of the vent horizon. When a piece of matter falls into a black hole it is not entering a solid body like the earth, the video link I sent you previously outlines two theories as to what may be happening, but suffice to say the mass does not move to the center of the hole and keep going out the other side.

                  However in both cases gravity adds; when we toss a ball into a hole in the ground it becomes part of the earth, its gravity adding to the earth’s like two drops of water merging. (It only adds smoothly if it’s right at the center of earth of course, if you’re standing on top of the ball buried just below the ground it will have more effect on you than any other piece of mass.)

                • Yes very interesting – .

                  But the ball has momentum so it has more gravity on arrival at the centre than the earth and they have the same starting mass? Does that not mean the it cancels the earth gravity? – it becomes negative?

                  I love idea of entanglement and I am sure we have lot more pages to turn on this subject. And sorry to harp on about TC + TV. But in my thinking the information in order to have entanglement is by virtue of TC.

                • Assuming we start with the ball stationary at the center of the earth, it has gravitational potential energy, energy that is converted to kinetic energy as it falls. This is why it is so hard to lift a piano upstairs, you need to give it a lot of energy to lift it away from the earth. So when the ball is at the center of the earth, moving fast, it has no gravitational potential energy, but lots of kinetic energy (And thus momentum.) so it’s gravitational effect does not change. (This is another time where we see energy and mass muddled; stored energy is usually ignored, since it is so small compared to mass energy, which is nearly the same as treating it as mass energy. So many people think that energy can come out of nowhere.)

                  Gravity is never negative (that we know of), it always attracts everything. The ‘earth’s’ gravity is itself made up of the gravity of all the rocks, trees, water and so on that compose it. So adding the ball to the earth for anyone not very, very close to the ball would be the same as making the earth a little bit heavier. At the center of the earth there would be a (near) perfect balance, the ball’s gravity field would mix symmetrically with the earth’s and it would be impossible to tell the two apart. Far before then though the difference would be too tiny for anyone to measure.

                • Thanks – I need to learn more about the dynamics of gravity generation otherwise I am going to irritate you which I don’t want to do. Ok so it is additive to the outer system.

                  But should the inner ball cause the immediate collapse of the outer? Is it still additive?

                • Simply put, anything will attract anything else towards it, so you can often see what will happen by drawing the system and then drawing lines between the bits of the objects involved.

                  The ball would be trying to collapse the earth, that is, pull all of it inwards towards itself. (But we’re already imagining an earth that doesn’t immediately collapse the hole in it because of all the earth trying to collapse itself.)

                  And if the ball is in the air, falling towards the earth remember that the earth is also falling towards *it* (Both are pulling on each other.)

                • Yes . But I changed the rules in this a little and didn’t explain – my thinking was the hole exists ( quantum hole was in my mind actually but I don’t want to go there for a minute as I just need to fix the big picture first). The earth has it’s hole a particle comes along and flies through it ( under the original hypothetical conditions with its ends open now).

                  At the centre of the hole where it passes the earth wants to collapse and at that moment is the net gravity still additive or subtractive? I suppose additive because it realizes it is now more dense than it was a second ago so is obliged to get smaller. The 1 small dense ball will pump up the gravity of the outer ball, then everything external to the outer ball will also be pulled in closer.

                  Then if we have zillions of balls all the same all passing the same route like a machine gun bullets as far as the external matter is concerned its gravity is now increasing by the second, because the train of balls are moving so fast and they cannot see them and are curious why its gravity is changing so dramatically? Its gravity is not real in the sense if you measure its normal conditions. But as a result of this activity it behaves like it should be bigger or more energetic.

                  Then if we take our finger off the trigger the gravity returns to normal?

                • Assuming that we’re firing a line of really fast bullets through the earth (say a beam of neutrinos.) the beam has its own gravity, pulling things towards its center. As more and more balls enter the earth yes, gravity increases as the gravity of the beam ends up int he same place as the gravity of the earth. Eventually the bullets will pass the center of the earth.

                  If they whiz out the other side then they will take their gravity with them away into space. (And if they were really massive you could be dragged behind them by their gravity.) If they stay then they’ll be part of the earth becoming part of it and part of it’s gravity.

                  (Think of the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs, it had its own gravity and it went pretty deep into the earth when it hit, but now it is part of the earth, its gravity in the same place as earth’s gravity.)

                • Ok that’s good thanks. Incidentally – looking at the picture of the globe and the Gulf of Mexico 1.6M/kms area. Do you not think its shape is rather interesting and for a site for the big killer pair of asteroid’s arriving in the same moment?

                  So in a black hole could we? Have a scenario where our bullet photons are passing the epicentre continuously from all 360deg , like a poloidal smoke ring? This poloidal has a small inner diameter, so small one could think of it as a closed hole. Could this then cause our virtual gravity? Being poloidal provides the opposing poles. There is nothing to drag away because there is nothing to drag away? Or the object so small the photons or any other particle cannot get close enough. In any moment the entire field is enjoying a time of absolute zero. On the basis that the photons are moving at ‘c’.

                  If that could possibly be the case then it is a Time Zero Portal! Then thinking about the Russkind firewall the opportunity for ‘instantaneous & synchronous’ ( so called entanglement )behavior across it – passing from 1 time frame into the next. The event horizon being nothing more than a time interface.

                  Then thinking about the LHC – maybe as a research tool it is not complete, in the sense that we have only cut a slice through the poloidal. If we completed the entire structure into one where 1 quadrant of each ring formed a unity manifold with all the others. So as the protons was orbiting it’s own ring it would meet in the common point as all the other rings. They would not collide as their relative velocities are zero.

                  What is your thinking on this ?

                • As far as I am aware only one asteroid hit to wipe out the dinosaurs.

                  I am also not aware of ‘virtual gravity’; gravity is gravity is the curving of spacetime. Other things can act like gravity (Acceleration, attracting opposite electrical charges…) but are not gravity.

                  And I am not sure what you are asking about the black hole and poloidal; a drawing or some equations would be very enlightening.

                • Thank Kudzu,

                  Actually I did post a hypothetical schematic – but I can’t observe it anywhere in the historic train of comments here. I am not sure where it went. I will try again, I am aware of the other ‘gravity’ affects as I used electrostatic to agglomerate <10mu particulates vented in the exhaust from glass production furnaces. Simply by causing the exhaust to follow two separate exhaust routes. In each of the arms the particles where transit through opposing electrostatic charges. Then the exhaust arm converges into a single exhaust. Then the opposite charged particles agglomerated. Making them easier to capture. This was subject to novel research I was conducting in Bologna and Murano. I conducted a similar trials with British Glass where I injected charged particles of larger waste particles into the upstream exhaust..and so on.

                  If, we had 100 LHC’s so their rings are joined forming a big donut ( torus ). On the inside of the donut where all the particles are passing simultaneously they will all be at the same speed respectively. But the concentration of particles could be substantial and compacted into a small size. Because they are accelerating moving towards the centre – would this cause a gravity effect? 1. Where they coincide or within the torus manifold ? or, 2 within the torus itself? Interested to hear what you think..

                • The direction a particle is accelerating has no effect on the gravitational force it produces. However it would feel to it as if a large mass were in the center, pulling it inwards and holding it in ‘orbit’ in this ‘hyper LHC’ you envision. The gravity of the particles would however be outweighed by the machine itself, which would have an interesting profile. (Assuming you stacked a whole lot of LHCs on top of each other in a long cylinder.)

                • Please see attached…this is what I have in mind.

                  Gravity torus multiplier

                  Particles cause a second inferred gravity in the epicentre where 100% of the particles meet in the same direction

                  gravity at the epicentre pulls in the torus gravity. ( Just like 2 planets ) which have energy and momentum.

                  As the torus must reduce its dimension the particles must move faster which means they must reduce radius –

                  This makes the situation worse!

                  Hence a gravity multiplier! It want’s to increase forever ! ( like a diode ‘switch on’ infinite runaway current )

                  Particles if moving at ‘C’ must have a t= ( 0 ). If they move faster than light !!! then their time reference must become t = ( – 0 )!!

                  Which I think is impossible.

                  Therefore the entire system is in stress and equilibrium.

                  The entire system is experiencing a ‘TORQUE with TIME’.

                  If the particles could move faster their relative would become t = -0 . No problem – but they can’t! Even the LHC has proven that.

                  Hence everything in the background of the universe is against a background framework of T = 0 or 1. This is the ultimate limit

                  Not velocity.

                • You made a comment which has been going around my mind. You stated that bacteria are found at depth in the Earth – and came to be there without assistance from tectonic transit? How far down recorded ? In my experience working in the Boulby mine the fresh cut salt even at a short distance from the surface of 5000ft was hot. I did not measure it but high 50C+? they can advise me of course. It was very hot in the road spaces and had to be cooled by a second shaft otherwise the workers would simply die in the heat and working naked were in not for a single covering with a thin pair of overalls.

                  We know anaerobic bacteria can survive without oxygen. We also know the composition of dna some of it excludes the requirement for oxygen. IF, the bacteria came to simply come into creation there – then surely they can do that on other mixed material planets at depth? Energy is available from the background, and materials from the salts from the surrounding – maybe even synthesis of oxygen from the salts ( not NaCl )? For example in the case of rice husks the composition of its ash is 90%+ pure amorphous silicon Si02– I know this from work in India. The rice getting the silicon from silicic acid from the water. That is why they refuse to rot easily – as with other grasses which have their lifestyle in water, and their seeds properly packaged resists water and may freely float away.

                  So maybe the criteria is local energy not oxygen to create life? – in which case all the planets could have it? Just not flying or walking around on the surface?

                • As far as we currently know (This is a rather new area of biology) there are bacteria as deep as we have measured, so long as the rocks contain pores with water. They are all anaerobic- not requiring oxygen, and rather slow growing despite the heat (Some take between months and years to divide,.) They are not flourishing, but are surviving. Many seem to get a lot of their energy from chemicals, using oxidizing salts and acids like H2SO4 or Fe3+ to oxidize things like sulfides.

                  It seems very likely that they infiltrated the rock from the surface rather than life starting in rock itself. (Though some have argued otherwise.) This means that while many planets could sustain them, less could produce something that could evolve into them. This is why exactly where and how life formed is important; microbes today are not the fragile first life that formed, but already quite complex and robust.

                  Oxygen itself is not a criteria for life, the first life definitely lived without it and it is a toxic waste product to many things. As far as we know of what is needed for life is polymerizable carbon compounds (Amino acids, sugars) a solvent (e.g. water) some and some form of energy (e.g. oxidizable sulfide.) Life’s needs may be far broader or more specific, we’ll know when we find some not on earth.

                • Wiki extract:

                  Within the framework of established knowledge of physics and cosmology, our universe could be one of many in a super-universe or multiverse. Linde (1990, 1994) has proposed that a background space-time “foam” empty of matter and radiation will experience local quantum fluctuations in curvature, forming many bubbles of false vacuum that individually inflate into mini-universes with random characteristics. Each universe within the multiverse can have a different set of constants and physical laws. Some might have life of a form different from ours; others might have no life at all or something even more complex or so different that we cannot even imagine it. Obviously we are in one of those universes with life. [9]

                  http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTpskyAvk4BDAiaxwzwvgFR0t8b3SFApM48NgM_CQPVCYKQzGwCzQ

                  This is how I visualize the above extract! And it is a natural shape – I think based around Felix Hausdorf , zero dimension and fractals? One could present an opinion that its shape is harmonious with the background framework behavior – dare I mention the entanglement. The shapes we see do not develop in isolation. They linked to something else?

                • Not in a while and not for physics. (My specialty is carbohydrate chemistry, and I’m nothing special their either.)

                • Hi Kudzu,

                  Initial searches realize 435 nuclear power stations ( a lot of recording !). 80,000 scientists involved with the ‘1’ LHC research machine vs me with 435 research machines ! Comically. I am sure if the phenomena existed – unexplained energy interruptions they would have noticed it. However, this is not always the case. Their minds would be focused on “why is our power down, and adjust the moderator!”? Vs “can anyone in the office advise – has the speed of light varied in the last minute”? Comically! I am pretty certain that such a search would be futile on the basis that they all exchange information and such a phenomena would have come to light many decades ago…. However, that recording is there to be examined should they have not considered it? There must be things relating to the operation of NPS which maybe even the specialists have not researched and any physical power eccentricity may be written off as a poor quality fuel?. Similar to radar return blips ( background noise & sea scatter etc ). It is ignored generally and nothing more than a minor irritation. ( dated radar systems ).

                • Well any variation would turn up everywhere at once; which would be pretty noticeable, especially given that NPS do exchange staff and information quite regularly. And any variation in physical constants would have to be slight, or we might find our atoms suddenly not working. (Remember that physical constants affect *everything*)

                • YES! Absolutely agreed.

                  But a – or + 0.00000000009 watt synchronous? Yes it would cause affects everywhere but how would we know except? Petrol in our cars combustion, storms as you correctly note, ‘Aurora borealis’ + southern equivalent etc. Movement of a proton in the LHC. But the change may be quite tiny as above and the time interval even smaller?

                • Yes, any change that has escaped us would be tiny, trillionths of a percent or less, especially if it is constant change. (Happening over billions of years.)

                  Also, I forgot to mention that it seems we now have evidence of a photon being entangled with another photon that has already been measured and destroyed. http://www.livescience.com/19975-spooky-quantum-entanglement.html (That’s a brief introduction of course, the actual write-up is far more interesting, if opaque.)

                • Thanks for the link..reading it.

                  The thrust of my enquiry relates to a very very short time interval change. Just a blip! And such a blib may be random or regular but how would we know? Do we have a station somewhere in the world which is constantly is measuring the speed?

                • We have atomic clocks which are incredibly accurate and running a lot of the time. If you are talking about momentary changes that then reverse then these clocks should register them, though they might get bogged down in the background noise. (The slightest shake can make them go crazy, you’d be amazed at how insulated they have to be.)

                • Yes good point atomic clocks. But I am not so sure if they would be so accurate. And as you say extremely delicate and sensitive – especially the temp.

                • “(The ‘calm’ patch we are in where inflation has ended can only expand through new space at a rate of c, this is a disturbing feature of inflation.)”

                  Just returning to your above.

                  “Expand through new space”?

                  Intuitive example as you read this text light is transmitting information from your PC monitor to your eyes at value ‘C’. But in the one minute you have been reading this text the universe has actually expanded creating ‘ 1 minute linear value of ‘New Space’ – Between the monitor and your eyes – not ‘just’ expanding. This is another point relating to other realities of time and notional mechanism for the upper limit of ‘C’. Hence the LHC would only have the ability to exceed the value ‘C’ should it be located outside the Hubble Zone where New Space is being created faster. New Space and its plane has a time zero. But we are only really aware of the measurable linear time units light has taken to travel from your PC to your eyes.

                • When I am talking about the expansion of our ‘calm patch’ I am speaking about how inflating space is being converted to non-inflating space. The problem is when inflation starts it causes space to expand faster than c, but when an area of space *stops* inflating it can only do so at light speed, so the non-inflating space can never ‘catch up’ with the part of the universe still inflating. Meaning that at the ‘edge of the universe’ there is always going to be inflation blowing the universe up to massive sizes. You might want to see this brief description of ‘eternal inflation’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_inflation Alan Guth has also written an excellent paper on this.

                  And I do not understand how you expect even a hypothetical LHC to exceed c, this is the universal speed limit, expanding space or not.

                • “The problem is when inflation starts it causes space to expand faster than c,”

                  “And I do not understand how you expect even a hypothetical LHC to exceed c, this is the universal speed limit, expanding space or not.”

                  Sorry you have confused me on the above.

                • Firstly, inflation makes space expand faster than light, so once it starts there is no way to stop it. (It can only be stopped at the speed of light it seems.)

                  Secondly, you state that “Hence the LHC would only have the ability to exceed the value ‘C’ should it be located outside the Hubble Zone where New Space is being created faster” There is no way to exceed c that we are aware of, expanding space or not.

                • Thanks – yes. This is my point relating to the existence to the other dimensional plane ( dimension ut,x,y,z + t). My claim is that the velocity of light does not necessarily determine its own velocity. We are all locked into a specific way of trying to make sense of everything by our existing rules, and observational product very often has contradictions or lack of understanding and clear description. There was a post last night from NASA ref black energy and the ‘ether’! and unexplained occurrences between them.

                  This was a Victorian notion originating as far as I know from Newton. Then Michelson – morley set up their ingenious experiment to find out if it had motion. The term was completely discounted by Einstein but then he reinvented – hence the cosmological constant! Then your ref to De Sitter.

                  If for one minute we could think of such a thing would that help us to understand more? And try and see if it makes any sense of things – the above for instance?

                • You will often see ‘old’ notions bought back, sometimes because we find out that there are loopholes that mean it’s still possible, other times it refers to something that is not at all the same, but is a bit like something old. (Such as transmutation, alchemy; we know you cannot turn lead into gold using magic potions, but you can in a particle accelerator or via radiation. We call this transmutation even though it is not the same as the old middle ages nonsense.)

                • If instantaneous entanglement is real irrespective of distance only time (‘0’ time ). Does this not make you think of the horizon problem – and maybe support the concept of the 4th spatial dimension?

                • Not particularly; entanglement is an interesting and complex field and I have not seen anything in the math that would suggest such things.

                  And we need to be careful what we mean when we say ‘dimension’; many times it is used when we really mean ‘field’;

                • I hope you received my schematic of the LAC. If the particles are neutrons or whatever their descriptor/ability, they will have energy and acceleration. Moving at ‘normal c’ or Big C? they pass as individual particles a common internal point ( much like an atomic explosion mushroom torus ). The torus in this case may be moving as a system or not. The main point is if one has an exceptionally energetic torus and so intense that if forms a very tight diameter which it cannot adjust ( relax and become a larger diameter).

                  The frequency of particles arriving and exciting this common point is so high ( their individual contribution ) to the net gravity may be small. But because the arrival interval is infinitesimally short x the total number of particles passing in 1 unit of time the net contribution could be massive?

                  What do you think?

                • I did not receive the schematic. However I think I grasp what you are saying.

                  At any point in space the average gravity depends on the average density of energy there. So at any point in your torus there would be a balance, particles arriving as quickly as they leave. The total gravity would depend on how ‘dense’ the particle beam was.

                  Also, each particle would not have a ‘small’ contribution because of moving so fast, but a *short* one. A black hole speeding past earth at very nearly light speed would still exert its full gravitational force on us, but if it passed quickly enough there wouldn’t be time for it to have much effect.

                • Yes.

                  In the case of the Gravity Multiplier Concept, the particle beam could have a massive diameter, and with it massively dense as all the particles are confined into a small convergence. The relative velocities would be parity there. But as you correctly say they would pass through the convergence very quickly. However seeing there is a constant stream the net effect is that the gravity contribution is constant. Considering one particle in the epicentre for a tiny fraction of time – it would have to return a fraction of moment later.

                  Because this epicentre has a gravity its own right and being central to the torus – which has its own weaker gravity – the epicentre will pull on its diameter ( trying to shrink it ). As it pulls it into the centre – the particles orbiting will have to increase their orbital velocity – as the diameter of the torus wants to get smaller. ( think smoke rings )

                  The net effect of this will cause the density ( or visits ) to the epicentre to increase – so on and so forth infinitely …

                  I sent another schematic but have no idea how to transmit a jpeg here.

                  The unsatisfactory equilibrium is caused by the fact that the orbiting matter cannot move faster than light. Because in order to so then time will have to = ( -0 ). Which will mean time will have to run in minus figures or run backwards. So in my thinking this mechanism is experiencing a Time Torque. Therefore time is the master not velocity.

                  Regards the deep set bacteria, I would be surprised if they need to eat! On the basis that there is so much abundant background heat. And the fact that they don’t grow very fast is because ( maybe ) they are in a form of thermal stasis – opposite to frozen??

                • returning to black holes as gravity engines. The particles in the torus are streaming thro the epicentre at C. This stream converges into the common centre and must densify ( if only momentarily ). 100% of all the particles participating in the construction of the torus pass through this epicentre. The particle beam would be massive, dense and at light speed. The relative time between the particles would be zero.They would create a gravity which in turn would cause the diameter of the torus to reduce. This in turn would cause the velocity of the particles to move faster than light – which they cannot do. So the entire system must be under constant stress. It wants to get smaller but cannot! The net effect ( possibly ) is to create an infinite ( vertical curve ) gravity. What do you think?

                • Happy New Year Kudzu i hope you a good one. By the way can you imagine a universe without matter? If so can advise what you intuition tells you? regards

                • And a happy new year to you also.

                  I can imagine a number of universes without matter, or even particles. You would need to be more specific as to other conditions. (Whether or not space was expanding and how say.) It is indeed a fun exercise to toy with these things and many physicists have, often in far greater detail (And with more mathematical rigor) than me.

                  What interests me is how often my intuition proves to be wrong, especially when it turns out my ideas have been tried by others. If anything I have learned to trust math far more than myself.

                • Can you imagine just one universe without matter? I know you are going to say yes – in imagining that what remains in that space in your mind?

                  I have another intuition regards other universes – and have a image representation – also on you tube which I have named MANUBO. Funny word to use. But maybe we can have a look at this after you have considered the gravity engine?

                  Yes I take your point – but toys evolve with time – with the better understanding of materials and production techniques.

                • I would very much like to see this other video of yours, i cannot seem to locate it on the channel which houses your gravity engine video.

                  A universe without matter could be many things; it could contain a bath of low energy radiation, it could be the end result of a universe like our own where all matter has decayed. (If the proton were usntable say.) Or it could be a universe without any particles whatsoever. It could even lack fields (Or consist of a field that has the same value everywhere.) As I said, you would need to be rather specific about what universe we are dealing with.

                • Thanks for your kind interest – I will email a link later today….I think I may have cancelled the wix site for it. I put on the internet a couple of years ago…. And should if still around should searchable under ‘MANUBO’…. I will have a look…. Failing that send you construction files which I originally used.

                • Dear Kudzu,

                  This was the manubo website I was building then removed it – now changing it. A year down the road I feel compelled to modify it (embarrassed and to correct the spelling mistakes everywhere and modify the core notions ).

                  The concept of Manubo illustrations attached. Essentially it proposes a Mother Universe comprised of 1 framework ( a ball for presentation purposes of ‘Ut’ ). The universes are produced much like a mother producing children – they accelerate away from the centre becoming flatter – until eventually the centre shears and becomes a very flat ribbon. This ribbon then continues it’s motion and direction around the Manubo body. Until eventually it is obliged to enter the opposite pole, where all its matter is returned to energy. The process continues indefinitely producing new and recovering old universes. ( The dynamics at the centre of this body are not far removed in my mind from my toy black hole concept. And in a way duplicate the same physical phenomena. But much bigger than the biggest black hole ever imaginable!

                  When existing as flat ribbons ( maybe as horizontal layers of contiguous branes ). At that point our star partners have long since disappeared and what we see in the night sky ( if not permanent night!) is other new stars and planet bodies. This realization in a way could provide the next evolution opportunity of man – assuming the milky way remains intact?

                  The next evolution would be very important – whatever man is and to remain a unique species. The reason being that the old universes are consumed at the opposite pole from which they were produced. In order to avoid this we would have to jump ship – onto a ( neighbour brane ) which was moving in the opposite direction in order to indefinitely eliminate entering a pole and complete extinction.

                  Manubo is not a unique body and could exist in their zillions ( like stars in our own HZ ) each one having zillions of universes ending up like layers of onion skin being produced and recycled endlessly.

                  By the way regards the my toy black hole concept you said how/what could cause the creation of a poloid? I don’t know is the short answer, but every bath tub drain in the southern hemisphere the water rotates in same direction due to the invisible influence of a relative huge body called the Earth. Similarly, the influence on matter finding itself in a potential black hole may well be under such a similar kind of dynamic – and one which we are unaware of?

                  These are the basic notions – thank you for showing interest in these ideas. regards

                • I believe with your bathtub analogy you are referring to Coriolis force. Sadly this is not what causes water to swirl down a drain. This is the snopes page for the myth: http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.asp though it has been treated more thoroughly by physicists elsewhere on the internet. In a nutshell water swirls because it has some random motion that is amplified as it drains.

                  Something similar poses some severe problems for forming a structured black hole. The mass involved is already in the grip of a powerful dynamic, that of angular momentum. As the mass falls in it spins faster and faster. A neutron star may spin thousands of times a second, black holes much, much more. (Matter falling into the hole likewise makes it spin as it adds its angular momentum.)

                  So any model that poses an internal structure for black holes will have to account for this. In general a theory that posits something like this poloid of yours is not to be taken seriously unless there is a rigid mathematical basis for it, or experimental evidence.

                  I am now quite interested in this Manubo theory of yours, it seems to have promise. I am guessing that if we were to visualize the Manubo as a poloid in 3 dimensions then we could visualize the daughter universes as flat 2D ribbons emerging from (say) the top, curving over like lines of magnetic flux around a loop of wire eventually meetig at the bottom pole and being destroyed? It raises many, many (many) questions and I shall have to wait until a complete description is up to ask them.

                • “I believe with your bathtub analogy you are referring to Coriolis force. Sadly this is not what causes water to swirl down a drain. This is the snopes page for the myth: http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.asp though it has been treated more thoroughly by physicists elsewhere on the internet. In a nutshell water swirls because it has some random motion that is amplified as it drains.”

                  Thanks for the link- I sort of regret referring to this as a play example – because now I am obliged to revisit it! And my mind is somewhat overtaken with the TBH. Actually on occasions I have tried and succeeded in causing it to rotate in its opposite sense. But then after a short time it reverts back to its preferred flow direction – this as you refer may be caused by the drain geometry. This would mean that I would have to create a test drain and test it around both hemispheres! Which I am most likely not going to do!

                  Yes I agree the TBH will not gain any kind of enthusiasm in the real world until such time as it could be demonstrated by some model. Which would include, select and predict particle behavior in this scenario.

                  However many speculative concepts are investigated on the basis of law of curiosity. The DoD invests millions in this kind of curiosity driven research – one such area of research which I was following was how to control an insect flight direction remotely by implanting ( connecting to and external Tx/Rx chip which was stuck on the insects head. A scarab beetle in this case. It also included the production of insects to increase their adult size. They succeeded in both. A. by keeping the insect generations in a high oxygen atmosphere simulating the carboniferous Oxy content – when insects where enormous ( larger than a man in some species ) and 2. By conducting invasive brain surgery of the insect to connect the electrodes!! The work done in California and I enjoyed a long private email discussion the Prof leading the research. The result was a 13% increase in insect size and good indication of flight control and flight initiation – but not very accurate – much like a cheap radio controlled aeroplane.

                  I prefer to think that black holes and universes are not that mysterious – just we have not used enough intuition. In the same way regards the dynamics involved with flower/insect mimic. If you research this there are some incredible examples ( mostly orchidae ). Thank you for showing interest in Manubo, we know that our universe is not symmetrical – and could say taking up a flat posture – Why? If that is true then there must be a force on it causing it to change/determine shape. Most speculatively of course maybe taking up its position at a pole? In preparation for the next phase and a big empty hole to appear!!

                  “(Matter falling into the hole likewise makes it spin as it adds its angular momentum.)”

                  That is very interesting – ( like a man pushing a child on a swing ? can I think of like that?

                • The DoD have more money than sense in my opinion. When you investigate the possibility of psychics for several decades, despite constant failure you lose any credibility on that front.

                  I am not sure our universe is that asymmetric; I know that one of the big questions inflation ‘answered’ was why our universe was so flat, so featureless, so symmetric. Inflation acted to stretch out and smooth over the quantum irregularities that otherwise would have been very visible.

                  It is not quite like a man pushing a swing.You will want to check this video out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZlW1a63KZs As spinning collapses it has to spin faster. So it would be almost impossible for a black hole, neutron star or white dwarf not to be spinning incredibly fast when formed. (They slow down over time though.)

                • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHlAJ7vySC8

                  Thanks – yes a simple demonstration and quite powerful! This is Prof Leithwaite I used to follow his lectures back in the late 70’s – he had some fascinating ideas. I met him once at the Royal Institution of Great Britain where he gave a discourse of the same subject.

                  His style was captivatingly honest – unlike Kaku ( sorry Kaku!) ( then as now physics was a scary subject for the general public ) One of his ideas which you will remember was the train without wheels using magnetic levitation ( linear conductor motor ). He got somewhere with this and I think the Japanese invested in a track in Tokyo. This concept caused him a lot of TV popularity at the that time.

                  Back to TBH – revisiting this bit of physics – thanks for the link. Makes me think a bit deeper into the dynamics associated with the poloid – it could be experiencing another degree of rotation. 1. The particles in the ring and, 2 the entire poloid!

                  Question: 1. The individual particles are rotating at the speed of light as, 2. Converting at a common epicentre which determines that the diameter must continually reduce 3. The entire poloid system is also rotating at the speed of light? First I imagined it as a static mechanism but this may not the be case? What would you make of that?

                  So if the particles are responsible for the primary generation of gravity at the dense centre, the rotation of the entire system may cause it to be a gravity multiplier?

                  Prof laithwaite demonstrates ( the 40lbs mass ) is technically lighter. Of course it is not but from his arm muscles point of view it is and requires less joules of his energy to manipulate it.

                • The behavior of the individual particles in your poloids would depend on exactly how they were behaving. If they were discrete particles with a well defined location this could be difficult, since they would be moving at light speed already, and rotation would attempt to increase or decrease their speed. If on the other hand they were in a similar situation to an electron in an atom, with a less well defined position then I think the whole poloid could be rotating.

                  The problem with the Professor’s example is that the rotation doesn’t affect gravity itself, but the balance of forces. A better analogy would be a motor, where a spinning magnet creates an electric flux. If this was the case for gravity it would likely involve a completely novel particle and\or aspect of gravity.

                • I suppose a universe as ours would continue to be bombarded with CBR, strictly speaking I suppose we could not legally remove that as its origins are not of this universe. So what would the CBR be moving through where matter used to exist which created our local spacetime?

                  Question:

                  CBR: if you were to use Max Planks theory, could you use it to predetermine the energy of such a particle? By that I mean can you change any value in it to achieve such a result? E.g. Work the equation backwards and change values in it?

                • Well now things get interesting.

                  In a universe that follows physics like ours the presence of the CBR means the presence of matter.

                  The CBR is indeed from our universe, roughly speaking being created not in the big bang as such, but being modified over time through interactions with matter. (Until the temperature of the universe was low enough for atoms to form.) It’s an interesting and complex subject.

                  In our universe any particle-antiparticle pair of sufficient energy can become any other particle-antiparticle pair. The big bang initially created a lot of particle-antiparticle pairs and the CBR is part of this (Photons being their own antiparticles.) This means that if the early universe was filled with just a pure mixture of one kind of particle and antiparticle, all the other possible kinds will be able to appear (roughly speaking.)

                  This could be avoided if the baby universe only produced particles (Not sure how this would work.) or if particle-antiparticle pairs couldn’t interconvert or if everything was finely balanced and all the matter and antimatter produced were in equal amounts and perfectly annihilated. (The fact that our universe had ‘extra’ matter was an interesting problem in physics.)

                • Ref the ‘ toy black hole’ theory: You said you were unable to identify a candidate particle to participate in this system Of course likewise. However, just to kick of a stream of ideas how about this: If the TBH has a construction of particles with mass then presumably we have a short list to choose a candidate – and eliminate as unusable. In the alternative if the TBH is made up of massless particles we also have a list short list to choose from. If massless photons then the entire centre – also does not have mass just the concentration of photons producing a dense massless core?? But because they have the energy + momentum they produce the initial gravity so intense to initiate the entire device and cause a poloid? For example when a shell leaves a large gun barrel it usually produces a ring of energetic gun smoke. In the TBH and small step for the imagination, if in the final collapse of the supernova where there must be incredible dynamics being ever submitted to a decreasing diameter. In this confusion of behavior there must be a natural background ( initiator force ) of nature which is determining the final outcome, which is consistent otherwise we would not have so many black holes. So what happens in the last minutes before the black hole is switched on? That is an interesting muse! The last minute of shrinking chaos before it becomes stable and form one. The example of an initiator force in the bath tub is the rotation of the earth. So no matter how huge and powerful these things are, must remain subject to something external. Otherwise we would only have one black hole and a freak of nature?

                  Another step… to form a theoretical poloid one requires an aperture ( such as a gun barrel example ). Then this idea you may find interesting.. How about that a tiny aperture in this case is where 3D ceases to exist caused by concentration of dimensionless particles. Just 1 dimension ( which brings me back to ‘Ut’. ) If the 3D are stripped away then the degenerate material is entering a 1D sink where it may be rotating or stationary. We have a 1 dimensional hole – into which the energy, or photons may be moving – that perhaps could cause the initial concentration of energy into a focussed point. Once densified and focussed in this way causes the intense gravity. The chaotic competition around this aperture are then organised into a cyclical & laminar flow by its presence then becomes self sustaining like a jet engine. The power turbine is driving the compressors and will continue to accelerate until self destruction if not limited by the physics of fuel air combustion and bearings.

                • One of the strengths of the ‘gravitational collapse model’ of black holes is that it dampens chaotic dynamics, much like how all massive objects in the universe are spheres. (A rock can be any shape, asteroids are roundish and planets even moreso.)

                  While the formation of a black hole (or neutron star, etc) is incredibly violent and energetic, the crushing gravity keeps at least the central mass all moving inwards at roughly the same rate, overwhelming other considerations.

                  In general he less symmetric something is, the harder it is to create. A sphere is the most symmetric 3D object and thus the easiest to create, all of its constituent particles simply have to attract each other. (Or it seeks to minimize the surface area-volume ratio or…) By contrast an egg shape can be formed by collapse only if one direction in space sees less collapse than the others (Which is not how physical laws work; meaning we’d need at least two processes to do this.)

                  So your poloid must form despite the fact that a collapsing sphere is simpler. (Indeed the formation of a black hole is very similar to water going down a drain. If you trace the path of a particle in both situations it traces out a spiral towards the center. However the drain has somewhere for the matter to go.)

                • I used the word ‘charge’ nervously when attempting to explain the toy black hole as a hypothetical mechanism. If the particle stream is a photon or Gauge boson cocktail then the word charge may be appropriate? In as much as the photon is a carrier of electromagnetism. Could it be that when the particles are concentrate and densified forming its so called mass less core – that the charge in this zone becomes rather more than substantial + the creation of substantial gravity as the so called charge has to convert into another form in order to rid itself of it to maintain its equilibrium. Eg:

                  I recall once when I visited a paper mill. The web of paper as it was produced in the process of manufacture collected static charge picked up mainly from the drying phase over huge heating rollers. This charge was then conserved by the huge end roll which may have been more than a kilometer + of paper wound onto it. To walk in the vicinity of this roll was dangerous for various reasons. One of them being the fact that the roll would user a passerby as a route to earth producing a substantial spark which could jump a meter air gap. The roll was wound onto a metal roller with metal support. But for some reason it was not earthing the roll? And for some other reason airmail paper was the worse candidate for this. I suppose just being thinner and able to wind more paper length onto the roll. So it was acting like a huge capacitor.

                  Then as the gauge boson particle/s exit the core they return to the outer ring – only to return millionths of a second later with more charge which they have picked up in their transit outside the core. So the photons are pumping the core in a similar why as laser resonator is pumped. In this example the HV raises the outer electrons to a new orbit , then in returning to its historic orbit emits coherent light 1.6mu in the case of C02.

                  So the toy black hole could it not be converting this charge into gravity? So we have 2 dynamics 1. gravity produced in its true sense by the energy behavior of the photons in this mechanism and 2. Immense Electrostatic generator (van der graff style )?

                • I could not find any references to “ Synchronicity of Suns” which presumably means there is non, not considered, or non published?

                  I have considered Hamiltonian briefly I am not sure how it can have any applicability to a universe of 2D time. But was alerted to his reference of infinitesimal places – which I am going to revisit. Also his equation negates time – which has also caught my attention.

                  In your earlier comment you requested some math to assist with the visualisation of a 1D TC framework. You will have to forgive me if the below is not relevant as I am not a professional mathematician – and I am presenting this off the cuff.

                  In the Parent Space which I propose it has 1 boundary and the internal framework has a time constant being ‘0’ or ‘1’ the 1D boundary moves outward and our locale is being stretched at 300,000kms creating new parental space in its framework ( not an ethereal wind ). So this intuition is promoting the idea that our parent space has 2D not 3D even though it could be a sphere ( hence liking to the mobius/Kleinwort phenomena ). What is happening to the boundary is of lesser consideration for the moment and only thinking of the notion and ability of a time constant.

                  2-dimensional Euclidean space (R2) where we examine Euclidean (x, y) and polar (r, θ) coordinates (which are undefined at the origin). Thus x = r cos θ and y = r sin θ and also r2 = x2 + y2, cos θ = x/(x2 + y2)1/2 and sin θ = y/(x2 + y2)1/2. Suppose we have a scalar field which is given by the constant function 1, and a vector field which attaches a vector in the r-direction with length 1 to each point. More precisely, they are given by the functions

                  s_{\mathrm{polar}}:(r, \theta) \mapsto 1, \quad v_{\mathrm{polar}}:(r, \theta) \mapsto (1, 0).

                  Let us convert these fields to Euclidean coordinates. The vector of length 1 in the r-direction has the x coordinate cos θ and the ycoordinate sin θ. Thus in Euclidean coordinates the same fields are described by the functions

                  s_{\mathrm{Euclidean}}:(x, y) \mapsto 1,

                  v_{\mathrm{Euclidean}}:(x, y) \mapsto (\cos \theta, \sin \theta) = \left(\frac{x}{\sqrt{{x^2 + y^2}}}, \frac{y}{\sqrt{x^2 + y^2}}\right).

                  We see that while the scalar field remains the same, the vector field now looks different.

                  IF, the prospect of a TC background is hypothetically ok – then current laws I suggest have to be considered differently – hence opening up a can of worms! We know STR has a problem in quantum physics – which to my mind is an indication that something is wrong or not correctly presented or understood – which infers we need more information about something to satisfy our lack of understanding?

                • Where did you look for references? You’d be utterly amazed at how much there is out there, often tucked away in journals and online databases. Unless you have access you’re likely to miss some of the best stuff. All most people have access to is google and related search engines which will only help you access content that’s both online and available. As an example I did work on fluorosucroses to inhibit bacterial growth, good luck finding anything about that without knowing how to browse some pretty complex databases. (For one thing what you’re after may be called say, ‘non gravitational interaction of distant stars’ or something totally different. Finding previous work can be a real pain.)

                  You are correct in that STR (and GTR) and QM do not get along, this has long indicated to most physicists that we need a bigger theory that contains both of them. Your explanation is certainly something for me to think over, though I do not feel qualified to comment on it at present.

                • Thanks – yes searching is absolute pain. I like your search phrase and will use it. I have sent an email to the AEA public office – to ask in what form and if available the NP daily outputs. The AEA are generally good at keeping records like the MoD. So I will just await their response. Being lazy hopefully the records will turn up?? However, it would be the most boring study? I hope it will be graphical report.

  25. Prof. Strassler,

    Standing in an elevator that accelerates upwards, would the gravitational influence from the earth on my body, f.i. at the moment the elevator passes a certain height be different from the gravitational influence on my body in case the elevator stands still at the same height?

      • Hi Matt,

        I am compelled to ask you a couple of questions if may please:

        1. A small ball central inside another ball which momentarily has far greater gravity than the external one: Is the gravity additive or subtractive? The inner ball in this case is sufficient to cause the instant collapse of the outer.

        2. Can you visualise a condition where the affect of gravity is caused by an object/things which do not have mass? Externally, it acts as it does but internally is zero?

        3. The subject of light is constantly discussed if the value of light speed should vary by a very very small percent with a very very small time interval how would we know?

        4. There was a recent post originating from a NASA page here it is reporting unusual occurences relating to the ‘ether and black energy’. They are short of an explanation. Can you visualise a situation where the universe could exist as 2 entities of time 1 constant and 1 variable.? And could be expressed as ut,x,y,z + temporal time where ‘ut’ is the additional dimension which is providing the time zero but is stretching causing the value ‘C’?
        thanks

  26. Can anyone advise me: If we were to realise mathematically a universe which does not have any mass in it i.e. in the case of the early universe would Einstein’s STR and GTR have any relevance? 2. How would one define that massless void dimensionally ? Euclidian space? or just a zero dimensional void – despite the fact it had a regular dynamic boundary?

    • The early universe is far from a massless void, even before the Higgs field became nonzero there was some mass around.

      Assuming that you were the lone object in an entirely massless universe (since I doubt you would last long in the early universe.) then relativity would still matter, so long as you could differentiate between reference frames.

      If you were the sole reference point in a massless void, with no way to differentiate between reference frames (so you couldn’t throw objects away from yourself, etc.) then relativity might exist, but you would have no way to detect it. (Likewise the expansion of space, etc.) This is much like how we can’t tell the Earth is orbiting the sun from its surface.

      There would be a problem defining said void since all our measuring devices are massive. Mathematically we could define a hypothetical empty void as Euclidean I believe.

      • Thank you for clear declaration. Am curious though whether any experiment thought or real can at this time say what those localized masses were? It seems to me that when we start with Higgs field or earlier as having a source of its mass we ought to have a falsifiable explanation of what that source was before it is theory rather than not even wrong stuff.

        • Things get interesting the further back towards the Big Bang we go. Before the Higgs field was zero Higgs particles themselves had mass, as well as a few other particles that get some of their mass through other means (Top quarks and neutrinos are two examples.) Since there was so much energy at this time, these particles were being produced wildly and the B.B. was both hot and dense.

          And of course we had things like black holes and (hypothetical) strings and in general things were quite messy. we can even see the primordial ‘mass map’ of the universe in the Cosmic Microwave background; initial, quantum fluctuations in mass-density in the early universe were blown up to cosmic scales by (we think) inflation.

          Before this thinks get murkier, our current understanding begins to break down. We have a number of theories and thought experiments on what happens before this, but as yet it’s rather difficult to even figure out which ones may be right. (Recently inflation and the big bang have even come under fire!) Some have indeed suggested the universe started off as an empty void, a false vacuum or other, more exotic states.

          • Umm… I don’t follow this comment. You say that top quarks had mass through other means in the early stages of the big bang, as did neutrinos — what are you thinking of?

            I should emphasize that what you say in your second sentence is, in any case, somewhat speculative. We don’t actually know this experimentally; we surmise it from our equations. We don’t actually know the history of the universe well enough to be sure. Also I think you meant to write “non-zero” rather than “zero” in the fifth word of that sentence.

            • dear Professor – how do i find someone’s comment when they have replied to me. I click on reply and then i find i am somewhere in the universe of this engine it alerts me to reply which i click – then have to scroll up and down in the hope of finding it! what am i doing wrong?

              • In the case of a black hole with a gravity radius of 50 light years

                What is the energy of that body?

                “A supermassive black hole is the largest type of black hole in a galaxy, on the order of hundreds of thousands to billions of solar masses”.

                Our sun’s output

                3.846 × 1026 watts, = and effective gravity radius of 4.545 billion km, give or take things we can’t actually see orbiting out further. And the suns diameter of 1,400,000kms approx

                So the energy output could be 1 billion x our solar mass above?

                Hence reach the radial distance of 50 light years or more?

                This is realization:

                !!! could this be true??

                If the Earth became a black hole it would have a diameter of about 0.017 meters, about the size of a marble. Our Sun would have a diameter of about 6000 meters, just a little less than 4 miles.

                • By ‘gravity radius’ do you mean ‘event horizon’? Gravity’s reach is infinite, all that changes is the strength.

                  Gavity is also not related to energy *output* but the total energy *in* the body. Our sun is losing mass as it burns its hydrogen fuel, so t is slowly letting go of everything orbiting it. (Though that will get worse when the sun becomes a red giant and really begins to shed mass.)

                  If the sun became a black hole, earth would not notice, at least until it got rather chilly and dark. A black hole is just very dense, it does not have more gravity than any other object equally as massive. As for energy output, black holes are very good at not outputting any energy at all, and the bigger they get, the less energy they’re willing to let go of.

                  A nice page you might like is here, it is a quick calculator that will tell you the energy content of any piece of mass: http://www.1728.org/einstein.htm

                  What you may be interested in are supernovae, which can outshine all the stars in a galaxy, or quasars (black holes eating stuff) which can output all the energy the sun will ever produce in seconds or less.

    • Empty (no matter) space but solution of Einstein General Relativity equations is what is known as ‘De Sitter cosmological model’. See :
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Sitter_universe
      It was puiblished as early as 1917, and was a joke model, aimed to show that the ‘mach principle’ (geometry is driven by matter content) was not the end of the story.

      • “It was originally proposed by Albert Einstein as a modification of his original theory of general relativity” – Yes Alain thanks very much. But what troubles me is the fact that the whole world had adopted his GTR, – he wanted to modify it and the world denied such modification! I know he continued this course – he and the world were hung by the same GTR petard. Why would “he feel” the need to change a perfect law? Yes it was ignored – if we are discussing the same case. Then despite the fact that he was greater than the beatles fame why would he want to adjust something which was perfect? – he was not happy with it?

      • Thanks Alain – I appreciate that. He thought the universe was static – yes. And his STR and GTR are based on it. That is why he had an ongoing argument with Michelson at that time – who claimed it was not. And of course failed to prove it was by his famous experiment – thinking the univese was moving like a wind – and in hindsight of course his experiment seems rather childish now – but at the time of course some strong arguments where ongoing. Thanks also for your reference. I will read it this evening. I hope this will be an end to my enquiry. Regards ewj

      • Dear Alain & everyone, in reading and re reading the links you kindly supplied above – I have to say it leaves me a tad unsatisfied. De Sitter Universe model says: “It models the universe as spatially flat and neglects ordinary matter. The idea that it neglects ordinary matter ( i would prefer all matter ) leaves me more satisfied. But what troubles me is this particular model considers the universe to exist in 2 dimensions! Surely this is the first error? I like the idea that it is expanding like a loaf of bread, but this assumes it is pulling the mass which exists in it, proportionally apart. Which has long since been rejected – and quite rightly I am sure. Help with this point or anyone please: My mind is somewhat stuck on the notion that if the primordial big bang with it’s zero mass – just a very high energy density, existed as a homogenous orthogonal expanding framework void, ( synonymous to an expanding chicken egg – neglecting the yolk density ) which can only ( I summise ), exist as a unity dimension which only has on face. Think of the mobius ring for example it only has 1 side, neglect the paper thickness for a second. If this unity dimension ( I hesitate to call it a dimension but know no other word for it ). Indeed existed before it created mass – then surely it still exists? Remaining as a unity dimension – in fact the Primary dimension into which is added the later Euclian 3 + temporal time once mass was created in it! IF, not then it must have undergone a mutation? I hope I am making sense here? Please bear with me on this. The De Sitter example is not appropriate with this notion. IF, the universe does exist as a primary dimension surely it is providing the opportunity not only for mass to exist in it, but something far more important: It is ( could be? ) the very mechanism which determines the velocity of light? If we consider this just for one moment all other kinds of paradoxes and phenomena may potentially be unwrapped, such as the Horizon Problem, black holes, time dilation, length shortening and the ( very creation of mass itself or pre Higgs )! Returning to light to help with a visualisation: We know the velocity is 300,000kms. I understand that no object can move – including light unless it has a space to move into! Could it be that this unity dimension is invisibly expanding orthogonally locally ( Hubble zone ) at 300,000kms. Hence when we try to make a photon in the LHC for example move faster we only successfully convert that imposed energy into new proton mass – simply because it has ‘No Space’ to move into – except the Euclidian space? IF, this unity dimension is expanding around us can we think of it as actually creating New Space second for second at the currently constant velocity 300,000kms? An independent entity but limits the behaviour of the mass it created? Causing a proton to become an ‘Energy to Mass’ converter, conversely, a black hole a ‘Mass to Energy’ converter ( the other sense ). Caused by some kind of torque effect. An actively eating black hole spews out substantial gamma energy from its poles where the angular rotation & momentum is lower. But this is moving onto another point. Returning briefly and finally to the primordial big bang, at that time the applicability of Max Plank’s constant would have a different impact on physics on the basis that the expansion of the universe was >C! We now live in a universe where light has velocity of C and determines the cohesion frequency of particles in the Standard Model. Could it be that if this expansion should vary for one second this will immediately affect everything! Such as the value of E=Mc2 power transmitted from the sun and the disruption and cohesion of all atoms? Hence the Std Model of particles can only condense into a solid form from energy when the expansion of the universe has this value. Similarly life on earth can only exist providing water is liquid and in a biological zone from the sun. Not too hot and not too cold!

        • I did not read entirely your post, because it was too long, but I notice this affirmation : “this particular model considers the universe to exist in 2 dimensions!”
          I don’t know where you read this, but it is simply false. Original De Sitter model is indeed a four dimensional (3 for space, 1 for time) model. See for example :
          http://mathpages.com/rr/s7-06/7-06.htm
          But perhaps did you read some related work ? De Siiter model got a renewned interest in the last ~30 years, as it could descibe the early universe just after the big bang. In some toy modesl, to describne some interesting proppertiez (string related models ?), for mathematical simplification, it was perhaps reduced to two dimensions ?

          • Hi Alain – directly from the wiki link you sent me! It states the model proposes the universe is expanding like a rubber balloon? and the mass on it move proportionally apart etc? Maybe the editor was just using this to explain its function? It does not really apply to my point of view. Pity you cannot read my whole message – I would be interested in your view and anybody else here. Thanks

            • Yes, rubber balloon is a 2D image for what happens in our 3D+1 universe. The space time structure is stretching apart like the rubber balloon surface, and galaxies are not moving themselves, like the points on the ballon do not move on the surface, but the surface between them is stretching. And if the distance double, the strectching double, which explains that the red shift of a galaxy increase linearly with the distance (Hubble Law).
              If the galaxies were really moving, with a kinetic energy of 1/2 M*v ^2, it woiuld require much more energy than any physical process could afford…

              • I can’t entirely agree with the last line of this answer: we have no idea how much energy is available in the universe. However, more seriously, space can stretch so fast that the distance between two very distant galaxies can grow faster than c, which we usually call the speed of light. [That’s what makes rapid “inflation” of the universe possible.] It is impossible for objects to move, relative to each other and as they pass each other, faster than c; so we cannot attribute the faster-than-c increase in the distance between galaxies (which are already far apart) as purely due to the galaxies moving through space. It is necessary to understand this as space itself carrying the galaxies along as it expands. Space is a *thing* in Einstein’s view of gravity.

                • Yes, you are right, the most convincing argument that it is not a proper movement of galaxies is that we indeed observe redshifts of galaxies greater than one (which if it was interpreted as a classical doppler redshift would imply a velocity greater than c). The greatest redshit that I kwow for quasars are 6.4. See :
                  http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~ryden/ast162_8/notes36.html
                  If classical doppler relation, v=cz, was to apply, it would mean a velocity of 6.4 c. But the relativistic formulae for doppler effect (with relativistic composition of velocities and angles) shows this velocity would be “only” 44.000 km/s, 1/6 of c.
                  But if it is not strictly impossible to find a physical process which could afford the energy needed to accelerate the galaxy at such a speed, it is very unlikely.But indeed, there are very violent processes in the universe…
                  For the cosmic microwave background radiation, we have even a redshift of about 1000 (from a teperature of 3000 K, where electrons and protons began to form neutral atoms, and the universe became transparent, to the present tempreture of about 3K).

  27. The fact that Einstein re invented the concept of a background absolute after discounting it 8 years earlier – is more than interesting! It infers that something is missing, wrong or not correctly presented ?

  28. It seems to me that the community of knowledge must recognise the fact that mass did not exist at some stage meaning absolutely no mass – on the basis that the higgs is necessary to give anything any mass in the first place? Or is my thinking off kilter? Zero mass > Higgs > Mass? or just: Higgs >mass first?

  29. Is there any prospect that we are only giving consideration to the origin, quality and effects of mass at the loss of consideration to an absolute which may exist – and not really thought about it too much since Michelson’s dispute & argument with Einstein then he reinventing Newton notion that it does?

  30. ” he was not happy with it?”
    No, Einstein was not satisfied by its static model, because he saw that this universe would not be stable. Even a slight pertubation would increase locally mass density, so gravitionnal attraction, attracting more mass, which in turn would increase gravitation, attract more mas and so on. At the end, the universe would collapse on this local density fluctutation.
    Then Einstein found that he could mathemetically add a constant to his equations, which is known as the cosmological constant, and it had the effect of an anti-gravitionnal force, which could balance the density and gravitation increase.
    But it was not natural. After the discovery of the expanding universe (Friedman and lemaitre models, Hubble law), the cosmological constant was no more necessary, and Einstein said some years after that it was the biggest blunder of his life. See :
    http://www.space.com/9593-einstein-biggest-blunder-turns.html

    • “pertubation would increase locally mass density, ” Thanks Alain! yes that is right – and why is my next question? and not because of his mass/gravity reasoning…still reading your text……..not finished yet – thanks

      Cosmological constant i would like to discuss with you next.

    • ” he was not happy with it?” Yes Alain – that is more than interesting!. A very clever man provides us with some great tools but everyone argues – including him what the universe is actually doing. Then Hubble team find it is expanding – but how does this affect mass? Apart from just proving presumably a locally constantly expanding space framework? By that i mean if Space is expanding what is expanding from ( its own fabric ) ? Or does it infer New Space is actually being produced rather than the same space but just stretching? I hope i have explained this well enough.

  31. “static model, because he saw that this universe would not be stable. Even a slight pertubation would increase locally mass density” – that comment is intriguing…..

  32. Can you explain this sentence, I don’t understand why [for slow moving objects] “the gravitiational forces between them are proportional to E1E2=M1M2c4.” I don’t understand how you justify writing E2=M2c4 as E1E2=M1M2c4. Thank you.

    • In a low speed system the force of gravity depends just on how much stuff is there. If we took half the earth and stuck it on the moon, the gravity between the half earth and bigger moon would still be the same.

      Two masses have two energies that must be multiplied together (E1 * E2) This makes E^2 (Which is NOT the same as E2!)

      Imagine both masses were the same size, then we have E * E = Mc^2 * Mc^2 which is E^2 = M^2C^4.

      But usually the masses are different so now we have E1 * E2 = M1c^2 * M2c^2 which is E^2 = M1M2C^4.

      Make sense now?

      • Kudzu writes: “In a low speed system the force of gravity depends just on how much stuff is there.”

        Where do you get this from? What is derived in this post is simply that an object at rest has Energy which is equal to its mass times the speed of light squared. Where do you get that there is a gravitational force between them and it depends how much “stuff” there is? That seems like a Newtonian assumption.

        “Two masses have two energies that must be multiplied together”

        Why? Why do multiply energies?

        • The Newtonian observation was that the more massive something was, the stronger the gravitational force it exerted. (Twice the mass, twice the gravity.)

          Einstein showed that it was not just mass that mattered, but energy (So light is affected by gravity, despite being massless.) We do not know why this is as far as I am aware, it just is, for the moment.

          Since the amount of energy determines how much gravity something has and we have TWO objects interacting, the total force between them is obtained by multiplying their energies. (Two objects of 1E each exert x force, Two objects of 2E each exert 4x force.)

          Since in a low speed, approximately newtonian system E ~ Mc^2, then the gravitational force is proportional to the two masses multiplied together.

          If we want a more accurate Einsteinian view, then things get more complicated.

          • Dear Professor – please advise what is your thinking on this. A universe 100% void of mass. Would STR and GTR be valid in this scenario? Plus could that space be defined as a cartesion/euclidian zone with no reference frames in it?

      • Kudzu writes: “Since the amount of energy determines how much gravity something has”

        I know only two types of energy, kinetic energy and potential energy. Which one determines gravity?

        “and we have TWO objects interacting…”

        This is a huge and unjustified assumption. In order to make this assumption you must make several hidden assumptions. What are they? Are you talking in the framework of discarded Newtonian doctrines of force or Einsteinian theories which deny force and Newtonian type interactions.

        “the total force between them is obtained by multiplying their energies.”

        How did you decide that the total force between them is obtained by multiplying? Neither Newtonian doctrine nor Einsteinian theories tell us to multiply energies. And should we multiply kinetic energies or potential energies? Why?

        • Mass could be considered potential energy, but as Professor Strassler has discussed elsewhere, there is just energy, and the difference between kinetic energy and mass depends on perspective. (A small bit of the mass of an atom of hydrogen is due to the speed of the electron moving around in it. We usually ignore this, as well as the much, much more significant kinetic energy of the quarks in a proton. And of course when we measure the mass of say, a ball, we don’t subtract all the kinetic energy of the atoms moving about in it.)

          All energy ‘determines gravity’; if you move something very fast, it gets a lot of kinetic energy and this means gravity pulls on it harder. We could even say that energy bends spacetime and that this is gravity.

          We need to multiply the two energies because both objects curve spacetime. Imagine taking two stars. Each has its own gravitational well, a ‘dip’ in spacetime. As we move them together, what happens? Their ‘dips’ begin to merge and spacetime ‘dips’ even deeper.

          So the basic assumptions are:

          * Every object with any kind of energy has gravity.
          * The more energy of any kind, the more gravity
          * Everything with gravity affects everything else with gravity (The sun pulls on the earth, but the earth also pulls back.)

  33. Prof. Strassler cancels the velocity term describing the motion of a “slow moving” object but still assumes that the object has motion: “For slow moving object p=Mv (where v is the object’s velocity) and pc=Mvc is must smaller than Mc^2. And therefore E=mc^2.”

    How can this be? The object is moving with velocity v, its energy is proportional to its v, then you remove the v from the equation by a linguistic argument but you still keep talking about slow moving object.

    When you remove v, the velocity of the object no longer exists but its energy remains. How can this be?

    In your expression E=mc^2 the object is not moving, slowly or otherwise, so this equation will be true only if the planets were to be stationary. This is an unrealistic, supernatural and unphysical case which is not worth discussing in a physics blog.

    Your argument amounts to setting v=0: E^2=m^2c^2(v^2+c^2) and set v=0 and you end up with E=mc^2.

    A slow moving object is not a stationary object and in fact, from its point of view, slow moving object must have a finite v. You cannot set v=0 and eliminate it as you move from one scale to another. If you want to talk about the velocity of a moving object you must include its velocity in the equation. If you are talking about a moving object and the equation describing the motion of that object does not have the term v, then you are talking metaphysics not physics. In physics, there are no invisible virtues that do not exist in the equation but move objects from outside the equation from the supernatural realm. I hope that you agree with this statement.

    • Again the argument here is that the object is *approximately* stationary.

      If we take a marshmallow (25grams) then the E = Mc^2 is 2.247 e+15 joules. If I fire that marshmallow out of a cannon in space so it is whizzing around at a hundred thousand kilometers per hour (Quite fast would you not agree?) then its energy due to motion is 9.65 e+6 joules. This is a difference of 4.3 E-7% (0.00000043%)

      We can surely ignore this for the sake of making things simple in a blog dedicated to keeping things simple so laymen can get a grasp of things.

      And I find it humbling to think, no matter how fast I go, by plane, car or rocket, from light’s perspective, I’m nearly standing still.

      • Dear Kudzu, could you do me a great favour and do the same calc to approximate an imaginary energy of a black hole: For example give this black hole a very high invariant mass the ( say based on the approximate mass of our sun 1.9891 × 10^30 kilograms and it has equatorial velocity of 1. @ 2kms ( actual ), and 2. @ 200,000kms. Is the difference remain so small as in your marshmallow example? Thank you for your time to consider this example.

        • It’s more extreme, but still negligible.

          A solar mass black hoe will have an energy content of 1.7877e+47 joules, a truly astronomical number. At 2km/s equatorial velocity (Assuming the black hole is a sphere of mass of radius of the event horizon.) the Kinetic Energy of Rotation is truly tiny, on the scale of a quadrillionth of a percent. (Ok, worse than that.) For 200,000kms things improve, getting into the 1% area, soy you can’t neglect it.

          Of course these are rough estimates since I ignored relativistic effects (and I don’t know at all how the mass of a black hole is distributed.)

          • SO!. even at 200,000kms a large mass has a trivial increase in variant mass! ( Hence Einstein’s advice to ignore it ), Seems unbelievable where the dynamics are so huge and at 2/3 of light speed! Particularly when a proton enjoys a larger mass increase in mass if I am not mistaken – please advise? What happens to the imagined sun mass rotating at 95% of value ‘C’? The same trivial outcome? I realise that the proton is being excited by an external force to make it move faster and is unable to for reasons which are commonly not understood. Off kilter – I can’t help but feel it is acting in some kind of torque with an invisible entity which we don’t yet know about.

            Simplistically, the motion and mass of a car we can recover some of that energy as heat when we apply the brakes!

            Referring to your much earlier comment relating to a ‘massless void’. How can such an occurrence be a Euclidian/Cartesian zone if no mass exists to provide reference frames – hence providing the above x, z, z coordinates? I will look forward to your advice. thanks

            • Well at a third of c you can’t *really* ignore it, it’s becoming quite significant. If we have an equatorial rotational speed of 95% of c the effect cannot be ignored by even the roughest approximations, here is where the kinetic energy begins to approach and then exceed the ‘rest mass’ energy (and I believe that spacetime itself is dragged about by a large rotating mass.)

              Regarding your second question, this is something that initially confused me. Such a universe can exist as a thought experiment; as such we can apply math to it without mass and reference frames much as we can imagine working on the physics on unicorns.

              • I had to laugh regarding physics of unicorns – lovely expression!

                Actually, The bit I am trying to fathom in this train of messages is regarding black holes ( this entity is somewhat a visible unicorn ) We currently understand it is comprised of super condensed matter of a collapsed old star. If the quantum of gravity hence generated is more relevant to Joules/sec than it’s mass. Do you think it possible that a black hole may not be as dense as we surmise – for the following account: The originating star may for instance have had a diameter of say typ 3 million km. Should this diameter be obliged to shrink to a new diameter of 5 km – a huge dimensional transition! In doing so it’s original starting momentum would have to be conserved if I am not mistaken? – in it’s new 5km diameter? If that is correct then surely it’s new equatorial rotation would be enormous? Hence the black hole is not as dense as we think and only producing a virtual gravity drain because of the kinetics involved and spinning so fast? Except at the poles of course where the kinetics are lower and the converted mass it consumes is permitted to escape as gamma radiation? And thought of as a mass to energy converter? Likewise a proton at 95% C in the LHC an energy to mass converter ? Very interested to hear your reply…thanks

                • Well this is a tricky question to answer indeed.

                  What 8are* black holes made of? It can’t be any kind of matter we know of, are they some novel form of matter? A distortion of spacetime? Or something more exotic?

                  You are correct in noting that the angular velocity of a black hole is likely to be enormous, remember that neutron stars often spin thousands of times a second for the exact reasons you note. But what black holes are, beyond their event horizon is poorly understood, and maybe within them the definition between mass energy and kinetic energy breaks down completely.

                • Thanks – so could they be just kinetic engines because their fixed mass it huge and their diameter is tiny and they rotation is massive

                  ? could they have the mathematical ability in these circumstances to generate all this energy? And create a gravity well light 100 light years in dia?

                • Well I assumed that the black hole was incredibly dense mass, which it isn’t and to be frank I don’t know what it is. Some say it is an infinitely tiny point, which would thus be spinning infinitely fast, yet still have the star’s finite rotational energy.

                  So I would say until we figure out what black holes are, you can imagine them to be anything. As the professor has stated, they can be made of photons, and maybe they’re just a giant tangle of gravitons, a fold in space or who knows what.

                  But if an object is made of matter, it cannot have significant rotational energy compared to its mass. The reason is, if something spins too fast, mass gets thrown off it. Jupiter does this, it bulges at its equator significantly due to the centripetal force of its half-day spin. A star is similar, so it can only have a certain maximum rotational speed, which is not a significant contribution to its total energy.

                  Even neutron stars with their massive gravity will crack if spun too fast, so if a black hole follows these rules (But why should it?) then most of its energy will be due to the mass that formed it, whatever it turns into.

                • Brilliant thanks…” They can be whatever you imagine them to be” yes I can understand that. And thanks yes a massive rotation would cause it to sheer itself – that’s obvious.

                  But they cannot be that mysterious as they are a part of regular nature. Mind you it is mysterious how a flower can mimic shape and pheromone of an insect bearing in mind it does not have any ability for feedback of information – to even know that the insect facsimilie it is mimicking- exists in the first place ( I don’t uphold accidental evolutionary accident – that’s an easy get out ). So there must be an information feedback somewhere along the line to cause it to deform its flower to resemble and insect which doesn’t exist in its world of supposed no information.

                  A black hole can be what we want it to be? So do you think that whatever it is – is not in isolation of another force ( not just being a black hole in 3D Cartesian space )? Returning to the concept of 4 spatial realities if the primary 1 is a framework which has a stretch velocity of 300,000kms then whatever it is and doing could be actually experiencing some form of torque against it? The velocity of 300,000kms is constant and hence it enjoys its equilibrium as the primary spatial is steady – also too reason why the suns output is regular in the case of E=mc^2?

                • Lots of things in this comment are wrong, but I don’t have time to answer now. But black holes are *much* better understood than this comment indicates, and they most certainly are not made from novel forms of matter or something more exotic. They’re made from whatever was used to form them, combined with gravitational fields.

                • Furthermore it must be in a wonderful state of dynamic ( kinetic ) equilibrium – so whatever they are doing they are stable to keep doing it for so long – and far more stable than any sun?? Help me out please ( no one seems to answer my questions fully )– After a sun goes supernova and is obliged to collapse under its own gravity with the possibility of forming such a black hole.

                  It is further obliged to reduce its diameter and conserve its original momentum. If the diameter is obliged to keep reducing the angular momentum is also obliged to keep increasing. So can we think that its subsequent angular rotation could reach ¾ or more velocity ‘C’? And as it starts to feed will become heavier which means its gravity increases which means it must shrink further? However, there must a point where it achieves an equilibrium somewhere along the way.

                  http://earthsky.org/space/fastest-spinning-star-ever-discovered-rotates-100-times-faster-than-sun

                  This link advises the fastest star rotates at 1,000,000 mph 447.04 kilometers / second. If you shrink this down to 100 kms diameter what will its rotational velocity be?

                  In fact do you think there is a case that the black hole is not a solid at all? On the basis that the mass it is ingesting appears to undergo a phase change just before it disappears into the mystery? Could it be just a very rapidly rotating ball of energy? And can only get to this condition if the original starting sun’s momentum was high enough in the first place – making it a black hole future candidate? ANY comments please…thanks

                • It seems then I have missed much. It is unfortunate that is is unlikely you will do a post on black holes as I honestly have so many questions that I can find only fragmentary on unhelpful answers on.

                  Can a black hole made of photons decay via Hawking radiation only to photons? What mechanism determines this? How dense is a black hole and in what form is what formed it contained? An so much more. Is there a resource like this site that may shed some light on these questions> If what I know about black holes is like what I knew about particles, there’s a revelation and complete revision of my thinking and worldview in order.

                • Maybe do you think there is a case for a further transition here: Sun>supernova>white dwarf> ( black hole ) which if the background conditions are right then it actually converts its mass into something else in order for it to survive as a black hole? If a candidate for a black hole has the background qualifications then to complete the transition from its historic existence is obliged to undergo this mysterious transition? Maybe it is just a ball of energy?

                  How much rest mass would we require to create a gravity large enough to influence things 50 light years radial distant? Surely that sum has been done. How many kgs of sun mass can create such gravity? We know our suns kgs and we know its gravity range approximately.

                • Black holes/ Lightening fireballs & vortices

                  HMS Montague ( Experiences of Lightning fire ball at sea )

                  One particularly large example was reported “on the authority of Dr. Gregory” in 1749:

                  Admiral Chambers on board the Montague, 4 November 1749, was taking an observation just before noon…he observed a large ball of blue fire about three miles distant from them. They immediately lowered their topsails, but it came up so fast upon them, that, before they could raise the main tack, they observed the ball rise almost perpendicularly, and not above forty or fifty yards from the main chains when it went off with an explosion, as great as if a hundred cannons had been discharged at the same time, leaving behind it a strong sulphurous smell. By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel. Five men were knocked down and one of them much bruised. Just before the explosion, the ball seemed to be the size of a large mill-stone. [9]

                  The strong smell presumably was Ozone? Please consider the note and illustration below:

                  http://www.bridgetopeaceproject.com/images_global/AWFNfix/AWFN4CsEperE/AWFN4img002.jpg

                  Numerous incidents of lightning balls suggest that maybe they could exist in the above form?? Then do you think this type

                  of condition could be created within the centre of the Black Hole? As with smoke ring dynamics the velocity of rotation

                  appears to make the ring ( tighter – smaller ) in its cross section. Then loses its small dimension as it loses energy. If this

                  phenomena is apparent to the mass converted to energy in a post supernova black hole centre – the faster it rotates the smaller it becomes if I am not mistaken? It has poles which would fit the ejection of Gamma, and the radial perpendicular kinetic’s could they not be producing the necessary extreme gravity effects? To reach across radial 50 light years? ‘A super compressed energy field vortex”? Anyone here know the math to calculate this – starting with what are the energy conditions necessary to obtain the above gravity ? – then work back to the vortex – Any thoughts please?

                • Ah, but the professor states otherwise, so it is likely that things have moved on and that things like gravastars and dark-energy-stars are now dismissed as nonsense or outdated models. This is why I am very interested in finding out more, no matter what I imagine, the universe always finds something better to come up with.

                • Black Hole Construction

                  ‘Large Amalgam Atom’

                  Could we consider this? Nothing more than a large atom! Where all the atomic components in the sacrificial sun are separated in the closing dynamic moments of the supernova collapse. The nuclei’s simply form the large real mass amalgam and the electrons like bees simply have no choice but to remain captive? Once separated the space the mass amalgam will require will be tiny. I have copyrighted this just in case this has not been considered historically. IF, such a scenario is in the realms of possibility what are you comments regarding the quantum of resultant gravity. Fission has not occurred because the individual nuclei’s have remained intact they have just been separated from their electrons. Nuclei fusion has occurred – hence a White Dwarf??> black hole….

                  The chemical state of this condition similar to an oxidizing gas. But unfortunately is unable to become stable in the chemical sense.

                  If you are not too busy I would be most grateful for the shortest reply. Respectfully ewj.

                • I am not sure that would work; when density becomes high enough, and far before a black hole forms (Think neutron stars.) any electrons in the mass become so high energy that combination with protons becomes favorable and the mass is reduced to neutrons. (With perhaps a smattering of unconverted protons and suchlike hiding away.) I have heard neutron stars described as giant atomic nuclei, but I am not sure how accurate that comment is.

                • If such a thing be possible the end mass presumably would be the same as the precursor sacrificial sun? – just that all the mass carrying particles be pressed together as a uniform homogenous lump? Regarding the kinetic energy and potential energy of this end state ( energy of the body ) could such a monster ‘by ratio comparison’ have more energy than a happy little single hydrogen or helium atom?

                  Yes I follow your insight, but are neutron stars becoming black holes? Are black holes in the process of slow development or do they just occur when the precursor conditions are right. Hence some suns will make one due their starting mass and spin etc? Also these sacrificial mass materials where presumably of hydrogen or helium which in their own right have their own atomic characteristics. But should this imagined monster be possible then, presumably it would add to the periodic table as a new atom in its own table – with its own unique qualities ( apart from incredible size )?

                  If the unimaginable compression does occur ( scientific original thinking ), energetic as the electrons maybe but simple not able to recombine with a proton – as there is no single proton to recombine with – just one big one?…

                • Electrons would be able to combine even with a mass of proton like you suggest. (I believe that such matter, composed of rotons and neutrons squashed so tightly together is called ‘Quark–gluon plasma’, and is only theoretical.) The electrons would vanish, but the quark–gluon plasma would remain.

                  All neutron stars could in theory be isotopes of ‘element 0’, the neutron, which is included (usually by physicists rather than chemists) in some periodic tables, but since it is a far different phase of matter from ordinary atoms and may be better called neutronium or neutron-degenerate matter.

                • This isn’t entirely right.

                  First of all, quark-gluon plasma has been observed and studied for about a decade, at RHIC and at the LHC. It’s not theoretical.

                  Second, you should not think of a quark-(antiquark)-gluon plasma as protons and neutrons squashed together. It’s what you get when you squash the protons and neutrons together so tightly, and heat them up so hot, that the protons and neutrons cease to exist. You can create such a plasma in collision of two very-fast-moving nuclei of atoms that are far up the periodic table.

                  If you squash the protons and neutrons sufficiently but you keep them cold, you will perhaps get something else — a superconductor-like material made of quarks, perhaps.

                • Many thanks for your many replies correcting these issues; I am amazed you have the patience to sift through everything here and provide accurate information. It is a true mark of dedication.

                • When a star collapses in a supernova, it may form a neutron star. If the original star is sufficiently heavy, that neutron star may be itself unstable to collapsing further, and nothing then stops it from shrinking down until gravitational fields are so strong that they form a black hole. A black hole is not made out of matter (though matter may be used to create it); it is best thought of as created by matter but made predominantly from gravitational fields.

                  Black holes are really not like ordinary particles, and really not like ordinary atoms, though they share (and not in a shallow way) some basic characteristics of both. You can’t put them in any existing table of particles or the periodic table and have that make any sense. They really deserve, and require, their own discussion.

                • Yes thanks – I thought my imaginings where a bit simplistic. So we can think of it as some form of spherical plasma? Made up of its special materials and hence characteristics. However, the external information it behaves typically with known phenomena?

                • You have to understand black holes in stages. One of the trickiest things about black holes is that time is warped there. So to say what it “IS” requires you state who is trying to figure this out: someone who is falling in to the black hole will have a completely different experience to someone who is outside and maintaining a fixed distance from it (either by being in orbit or by firing a rocket to keep from falling in.) And you also have to think about what experiments you can actually do to find out what this thing “IS”.

                  There is no “IS” without a measurement. You have to talk about what you can measure. And that then gets complicated. There have been plenty of discussions going on about the right way to think about black holes during the four decades since Hawking showed that, left to their own devices, they evaporate away. And improvements in how to think about them are still likely to occur.

                  But they are not ordinary things that you can think of as made from materials. That’s just the wrong intuition. The problem is that the right intuition is quite difficult to convey — it’s a bit of a Hydra, too, because different observers see things differently, so you need to have multiple intuitions and an understanding of how they are related — and I am not sure I’m expert enough to be the one to teach you. Maybe Susskind (who was one of my main teachers on the subject) is the best for this; I’m sure he’s thought about how to convey these ideas to the public much more than I have.

                • The Greek historian Herodotus made a fundamental observation about Egypt when he said, “Egypt is the gift of the Nile”.

                  In fact, the Nile not only shaped the land, but it also shaped the mind of the Ancient Egyptians.

                  -They considered the Nile as a force that could both create life and destroy it. During the inundation period all the cultivable land was under water, but at the same time inundation brings with it the potential for a new life: a fertilized irrigated soil ready for the sowing of corps.! Therefore, the coexistence of opposites was a core belief in the ancient Egyptians mindset. They were not that stupid as we have Euclid of Alexandra and Pythagoras to rely on –just to mention 2 – blending Greece with Egypt here – Euclid born in Greece as you know. Understanding things, is evolutionary small steps and we cannot forget these guys minds – as they had Great Ideas and Vision.

                  In modern terms, this is called the ‘Law of Duality’. It simply states that, “There Are Two Sides to Everything”.

                  In reality, everything exists in duality ( now we are discussing entanglement !!!). Understanding a black hole ( trying ) may mean not being tied to one concept of time and search and a solution to fit it? If a duality of time exists they cannot exist in the same place ( presumably) otherwise they would cause unimaginable physical confusion.

                  So let them exist in their own respective dimensions ( disliking that work – also spacetime ). But as you rightly say physics is based on tangiable measurement. So one must ask what is the tangiable measurement of string theory? ‘With non’ but maintains theoretical credence?

                  I was very impressed that you had Susskind as a tutor – and I follow his ongoing discord with Hawking. I would love to spend just 5 minutes with him and ask him the same question. If only I could find a way of presenting it to him. “ Can a duality of time exist?” and if so in a separate dimension where time is symmetrical. Which keeps both Newton and Einstein the best of friends. Respectfully

                • Could he be persuaded to perhaps pen something on the subject? The entire area sounds incredibly enlightening and informative.

                • “One of the trickiest things about black holes is that time is warped there”.

                  Presumably in the sense that both parties have different relative velocities? The one who is half in it could be near the speed of light and cannot see his legs even if they were still attached to his body – or substantially longer than they were historically thanks to gravity – or actually noticeably shorter according to ‘R’ rules. So one of the observers would have longer legs than normal whilst the other had alarmingly shorter ones. There’s a paradox! In reality the observer going in his legs are actually longer but the other observer is reporting they are shorter! comically

                  Kudzu commented: “Could he be persuaded to perhaps pen something on the subject? The entire area sounds incredibly enlightening and informative.”

                • One of the problems is gravity warps time as well as space. If I throw something into a black hole, from its point of view it falls in, but from my point of view as it approaches the black hole it seems to slow down (and redshift) Indeed the light it emits at the event horizon should be ‘stuck there’; forever not far in enough to fall into the black hole, but not far out enough to escape. So what is actually happening to the object? it can be tricky to tell.

                • “but from my point of view as it approaches the black hole it seems to slow down (and redshift)”

                  Could it be that this red shift is not a reflection of its slowing down – but only that the light is slowing down. So the action conflicts the occurance?

                • For a long time I thought that too, that the object merely *appears* to be slowing down. However we know gravity warps time, that time on the ground here in earth’s gravitational field passes differently from someone floating far away in space. So the object’s time does slow down from an outside viewpoint. This is ‘gravitational time dilation’ and it has been measured here on earth. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation for a layman’s overview.

                • Interesting, which means you have PULLED me into thinking about gravity! So we have to think about Velocity & Gravity?……thanks for the link.

                • Hi Matt – Happy New Year – i hope you had good one and enlightening time in Edinburgh.

                  Back to black holes – Question: can you imagine a black hole mechanism which exist as a poloid where the moving items are photons. The centre of the poloid the photons have a zero relative velocity ( in phase with each other ). In doing so the centre will have a substantial hypothetical density ( the energy and velocity locally compressed in that zone ). The outer ring the photons become rarified and separated. The substantial gravity caused by the centre puts the entire system under stress because it want to every shorten the outer diameter. It unable to reduce the diameter because the photons are already at value ‘C’ and to move closer to the centre they would have to move faster! This effect would cause the tension. This tension is then shed by way of producing huge gravity. In the same law as a proton generates mass to dump the additional energy which we impart to make it go faster. Does this make any sense?? I can send a pic or you can view this idea on you tube where i have presented although not very professionally. regards edward

                • What you have described is a very interesting situation. If a photon was stably orbiting a large mass, what would happen to it? objects with a ‘rest mass’ emit gravitational waves, losing energy, moving closer to the center of mass and speeding up. But a photon is a massless particle with a fixed speed.

                  It would seem then that it would simply be unable to lose energy and fall towards the massive object; it would be in its lowest energy state. (But something tells me that this is likely very wrong.)

                  Of course a photon that gains energy becomes higher frequency; and if the photons in your hypothetical object became energetic enough they would start randomly forming particle-antiparticle pairs (I believe this would start to become a factor when the total energy was enough to produce positron-antipositron pairs.) These particles would then fall towards the massive object.

                  I think this would make your supposed object unstable. Do you have the link to your youtube video? It sounds fascinating.

                • http: // http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD6pRrz80Wo

                  Hi Kudzu – here it is the Gravity Engine! Really sorry about its quality – first time i used movie maker and actually damages my pc and almost ceases to operate! Then almost impossible to edit it hence the failed proof reading and spelling mistakes ( so embarrassingly amateur ). Also rather patronising in its style which makes me recoil with further embarrassment.

                  I am going to rework it on another pc which can cope with this simple task unlike my 19C model!

                  In essence all I am proposing: It is a potential poloid ( like a smoke ring ). The gravity at the epicentre must cause the outer ring to contract towards it’s own epicentre. But if this was to work the particles would have to rotate faster in order to reduce its outer ring diameter. They cannot do that as they are already at value ‘c’. The entire mechanism experiences a constant internal tension. This tension achieves constant equilibrium by ridding that tension by shedding it as gravity.

                  Similarly, a proton becomes more massive ( even, if not is size ) if we impart more energy on it to move faster. It cannot, so one ( me ) thinks that the proton is under pressure. The pressure of the external energy imparted on it obliges it under the rules of nature to convert ‘get rid’ of that energy by the conversion into additional mass.

                  In the case of this hypothetical intuitive gravity engine ( black hole ). It dumps the tension by producing a massive gravity. The gravity is evidence and reflects the internal stress. Not just getting denser and denser like a super form of electron-less lead like material. It is an electrical device not far removed from a Klystron for example, which transmits microwave – but in the case of a gravity engine it is transmitting gravity.

                  And similar to a diode at ‘switch on’ where the currently flow is momentarily infinite. Only in this case the ‘gravity’ produced in virtually infinite.

                  Idiotically, one can think of it as a bird in a cage. Very often they shake and flutter to remove their stress. In doing so they become heavier momentarily during that activity! Our black hole is doing this constantly. I hope i have explained myself adequately. I eagerly anticipate your advice and critique -if for one moment you think this is technically feasible then perhaps we can turn our minds to the participation of Time in this engine – thanks.

                • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD6pRrz80Wo

                  Hi Kudzu – here it is the Gravity Engine! Really sorry about its quality – first time i used movie maker and actually damages my pc and almost ceases to operate! Then almost impossible to edit it hence the failed proof reading and spelling mistakes ( so embarrassingly amateur ). Also rather patronising in its style which makes me recoil with further embarrassment.

                  I am going to rework it on another pc which can cope with this simple task unlike my 19C model!

                  In essence all I am proposing: It is a potential poloid ( like a smoke ring ). The gravity at the epicenter must cause the outer ring to contract towards it’s own epicentre. But if this was to work the particles would have to rotate faster in order to reduce its outer ring diameter. They cannot do that as they are already at value ‘c’. The entire mechanism experiences a constant internal tension. This tension achieves constant equilibrium by ridding that tension by shedding it as gravity.

                  Similarly, a proton becomes more massive ( even, if not in size ) if we impart more energy on it to move faster. It cannot, so one ( me ) thinks that the proton is under pressure. The pressure of the external energy imparted on it obliges it under the rules of nature to convert ‘get rid’ of that energy by the conversion into additional mass.

                  In the case of this hypothetical intuitive gravity engine ( black hole ). It dumps the tension by producing a massive gravity. The gravity is evidence and reflects the internal stress. Not just getting denser and denser like a super form of electron-less lead like material. It is an electrical device not far removed from a Klystron for example, which transmits microwave – but in the case of a gravity engine it is transmitting gravity.

                  And similar to a diode at ‘switch on’ where the currently flow is momentarily infinite. Only in this case the ‘gravity’ produced is virtually infinite – constantly.

                  Idiotically, one can think of it as a bird in a cage. Very often they shake and flutter to remove their stress. In doing so they become heavier momentarily during that activity! Our black hole is doing this constantly. I hope i have explained myself adequately. I eagerly anticipate your advice and critique -if for one moment you think this is technically feasible then perhaps we can turn our minds to the participation of Time in this engine – thanks.

                • The video was both interesting and informative. I have the following issues with your model:

                  Formation: One of the useful attributes of black holes as conventionally understood is that it’s (relatively) easy to understand how they form; being a singularity simply letting gravity bring things to a point ‘works’ (This is a simplification, but still.) Black holes can be produced in violent circumstances and the existing model is quite robust, how does a ring of massless particles form as a dense ball of matter collapses?

                  Stability: A number of points arise here; the first is your photon poloid; the particles within it are treading a very fine line, if they were slightly further in they would fall into the hole, further out they would escape. Just doing a bit of back of the envelope scribbling, your torus would be more like a very, very thin ring.

                  A ring (or poloid) of particles is not a stable situation except in very rare circumstances. This is why matter falls into black holes, it collides with itself, loses energy and falls inwards (Rather than relying on losing gravitational energy.) In our own solar system the asteroid belt is very sparse because if it were any denser, asteroids would collide and be removed. It is like the viscosity of a fliud when you stir it.

                  Photons don’t suffer from this, but have other effects that also make me question their ability to do this, notably they can scatter off each other. If the photons in the ring were all in phase, like a laser beam shot around the hole things are better, but this raises another question of how this ring formed.

                  Properties and interactions of black holes: This is somewhat related to stability. Black holes have a number of properties, they can have electric or color charge, velocity and can rotate among other thing. (especially rotation, it is likely that at their formation black holes will be rotating massively fast.)

                  The question would be how your model handles these properties, where they are stored. (This is not straightforward to explain with traditional black holes of course.) Since your hole has ‘moving parts’ as it were and an internal structure this raises questions.

                  Black holes can also merge, and of course they absorb mass and energy. Most black holes will be continuously absorbing energy from the CMB. Your model seems only to be stable while the black hole is of a fixed mass, matter falling in would alter the ‘primary gravity’ and cause the ring to collapse would it not? And I am not sure what would happen when two holes merged.

                  The biggest issue I see is that the gravitational field produced by the torus would not be spherical, but toroidal. From a distance it would appear relatively spherical, but this would become less accurate as an observer approached, or the hole was larger. At the very center of the hole there is only the ‘primary gravity’ since the torus will be pulling anything there towards it in all directions, cancelling itself out (Like how you would be weightless at the earth’s center.) It should be possible to shoot through the poles of the hole, pass through the center and emerge out the other side.

                  There is also the question of what keeps the ‘primary gravity’ in place; if the torus is producing more gravity than G1 (That is it has more energy.) then the situation of G1’s mass becomes unstable. Imagine a planet with two moons, on opposite sides of it, in the same orbit. If the planet is large, (o O o ) this is quite stable, they will both orbit roughly around the planet. But as the planet’s mass increases this istuation becomes increasingly unstable. A small moon between two large planets (O o O) is stable, but the slightest deviation in position causes it to move towards one or the other planets. It is like a pencil balanced on its tip. (See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point where it is noted some points are unstable while others are stable.)

                  G1 would find itself at the mercy of G2, the slightest perturbation would knock it towards part of the torus, and it would then merge with it. Your model will need some way of preventing this.

                  All in all an interesting theory that will hopefully gain a sound mathematical foundation.

                • Hi Kudzu – i hope you have had chance to look at my ‘you tube toy’! The particles ( whatever name ) are not orbiting in the normal sense of an atom. ( although i suppose they could be ). My engine is a separate system of unity particles ( meaning same specie ) – but unable to orbit a mass ( even if there is one ) in the conventional sense.

                  This toy system could just comprise of particles – and the dense bit ( where the mass should be ) is constructed from themselves in the epicentre – creating a virtual mass. So they think there is mass but not! It is just themselves causing a dense centre whilst they visit it – and for the very short period of time – meaning value ‘c’.

                  In the short time they visit the epicentre they are all at the same velocity and time relative the same = 0.

                  So they all contribute to forming ( construction of a mass! of the same particle type. e.g. A huge massless photon?? Then exit the centre – then they revert back to being tiny things again ( unitary photons – or whatever ) in the conventional sense.( Or other candidate particle ).

                  Or it could be a be a pure energy flux ( definition here ) which is rotating & momentarily forms ( so called dense matter – whilst in the centre. They exit – the matter still exists because behind them is a constant stream of indian particles. Then moments later they find themselves back in the centre again which maintains the status of the virtual matter ( mass ) which is not stable. ( But is because of the feed & return rate of particles causing it in the first place.

                  Any new introduction of material ( matter, mass, energy, whatever ) causes a momentary loss of equilibrium to the entire toy system ).

                  It cannot tolerate this so it dumps what is can by conversion into another state of matter/energy ( e.g. x ray/gamma etc ). But the balance of matter ingested is another issue. If it consumed endlessly it must become endlessly bigger! – which on the face of it simply does not happen. ( And not thinking of Sir Hawkings version because any loss of energy would be visible to us ). Even an invisible glimmer! (so called thermal entropy )

                  So where does the degenerate matter go?

                  One can think of the 1922 accelerator function to come up with that answer?

                  The LHC shows us great images of particles spinning off after the collision but what happens to them? They cease to be particles? – and their energy absorbed by the detector and increase in the charge on the equipment? If that is the case then I assume they are measuring it?

                  What happens to a lonely supposed Higgs particle once it has been separated from the proton? If it has so much energy potential should we not encounter some other event ?

                  If there is no background increase in the charge of the detector = too small to detect or no increase in charge? ( i hope i have used the word charge correctly? ( 125 gev^2 increase in the earth leakages of mass converted into electrical energy? i imagine would be detectable on such an elaborate piece of equipment.

                  and so on…….i look forward to your reply with interest – thanks & v. kind regards.

                • Right. Your response answers a number of questions, and poses new ones.

                  If I understand you correctly, the particles in the torus are not orbiting it in the traditional sense, they are more delocalized, alike an electron around a hydrogen atom, which, though it spends a lot of time in a spherical shell, also spends some of its time deeper inside the atom, even inside the nucleus. When these particles are in the center of the hole they generate an effect like a mass, this produces G1, which then starts a feedback loop affecting the particles when they are in the torus.

                  The biggest objection I have tot his is I cannot think of how this situation would arise and what particles would be involved. The second biggest would be that the uncertainty principle does not allow something to have a precise velocity of 0, especially when it’s in a small area.

                  I still cannot see how this situation would arise as a mass collapses under its own gravity, at some point the particles making up that mass would have to convert into the kind you describe making up the hole, while preserving those particles information. (The particles you describe making up the hole would have to be able to store electric and color charge as well as the velocity and angular momentum of the mass and other properties.)

                  Your argument for the conversion of infalling matter is interesting, but raises some serious problems. In this case a black hole will always emit energy as it absorbs mass. That is, it would not strictly be black or be a black body. Classical black holes do not, the energy they ‘release’ is actually released by matter that has not yet fallen into the black hole, but is orbiting outside it, colliding with itself and losing energy. This is much like friction, the black hole is forcing mass together, squeezing it and making it rub against itself. It is a very rough particle accelerator. Close to the hole the mass is so hot it emits X and gamma rays. The jets emitted by many holes are also not emitted by the hole itself, but are matter that cannot enter the hole as there is already too much matter there. (Though precisely how they work is debatable.)

                  By contrast if I am understanding you correctly, your holes convert a percentage of any mass that falls into them directly into X rays and gamma rays. This means that a black hole sitting alone in space in the CMB will be absorbing that energy and converting it from high entropy microwave photons to low entropy and gamma rays. Indeed it should be possible to fire a beam of arbitrarily low energy at a hole and create a beam of high energy (but lower density) from the poles of the hole.

                  According to the laws of thermodynamics this imposes some constraints. The simplest solution would be for the black hole’s entropy to increase to balance this, but as it would eventually evaporate, this imposes some constraints on just how it can do this.

                  I am also not sure what keeps the poloid stable; the particles can migrate to the center, but then return to the poloid, but what prevents them from forming another poloid at right angles to the original? Shouldn’t they be able to form a spherical shell around the center? (Of course this would depend on the exact behavior of the particles, involved, do you have a quantitative description of this?)

                  The particles produced in collisions in the LHC decay and lose energy, eventually transforming into ‘stable’ particles, photons, neutrinos electrons, protons and the like, as well as energy to the equipment (heat.) This is a well understood process. There are indeed multiple events, this is why particles produce jets and why it can be so hard to detect the particle you want.

                  This is exemplified by cosmic rays, you will want to read this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_shower_%28physics%29 A single cosmic ray, a highly accelerated particle hits a detector (our atmosphere) unleashing not one simple collision, but a cascade of particles which hit more particles and so on until all the energy is spent. The LHC detector is far more dense than the air, so the cascade is somewhat smaller and more contained, but the principle is the same. (Though cosmic ray particles can be very much more energetic than LHC ones.)

                  Your use of charge is not correct however. Energy is not electric charge, which is what we often associate with electricity. When energy dissipates it usually does so as motion, or heat as noted above. Think of rubbing your hands together, stopping your fast moving hands, releasing heat energy.

                  Also though 125Gev sounds like a lot of energy and it is, for a particle, compared to our scale, it is tiny. It is about 0.00000002 Joules. For comparison you walking down the street have kinetic energy of about 35 Joules (70Kg at 1 m/s) On the atomic scale the Higgs energy is mighty, on ours, hardly noticeable.

                • Fantastic reply – thanks very much. I get the impression this toy black hole is part functional from your reply on the basis ( unless you are just being generous of spirit ) not to dismiss it 100% outright. You have picked up the scheme and obviously understand my thinking on its proposed operation. Maybe I could redraw more accurately the proposed flow and we just revisit ideas relating to its stability?

                  All the other refs you presented are most useful thanks – and thanks too for such a detailed reply – which I will revert back to later today – inc the LHC and loss/absorption of energy. Kind regards

                • “The biggest objection I have to his is I cannot think of how this situation would arise and what particles would be involved. The second biggest would be that the uncertainty principle does not allow something to have a precise velocity of 0, especially when it’s in a small area.”

                  I am sure you are correct, however, sometimes laws get changed or better defined e.g. Newton vs Einstein. Also, they actually do not have to have the 0 velocity as I stated ( although I prefer it ). The zero velocity is only relative to each other. E.g. they may be moving at 300,000kms or <C = ‘all of them’ and in parallel which of course will mean that relative to each other they have no velocity.

                  So if under this condition they are all squeezed up ( for a very short temporal time – or could be forever if time is zero ). It would be necessary to think of a further and new paradox here. How can something be “moving and undergo no changes”.

                  Anyway…if they are all squeezed up to form a dense mass which rests there constantly, but is constantly being refreshed with new particles ( ones which were there a second ago for instance…) then such a mass is both constant and variable. Are we obliged to think of particles in this construct? Why not just an energy flux without having to be defined as a particle? E.g. The entire system is a field which structurally looks like a poloid and the energy is being manipulated in a way I have described but in reality nothing is actually moving!

                  “Your argument for the conversion of infalling matter is interesting, but raises some serious problems. In this case a black hole will always emit energy as it absorbs mass. That is, it would not strictly be black or be a black body. Classical black holes do not, the energy they ‘release’ is actually released by matter that has not yet fallen into the black hole, but is orbiting outside it, colliding with itself and losing energy. This is much like friction, the black hole is forcing mass together, squeezing it and making it rub against itself. It is a very rough particle accelerator. Close to the hole the mass is so hot it emits X and gamma rays. The jets emitted by many holes are also not emitted by the hole itself, but are matter that cannot enter the hole as there is already too much matter there. (Though precisely how they work is debatable.)”

                  Yes I understand this. I am a bit confused on this point though. I know that the X and G are emitted from exterior material and activities, so what actually enters the BH? Just Heat? and nothing solid ( particle )?

                  “I am also not sure what keeps the poloid stable; the particles can migrate to the center, but then return to the poloid, but what prevents them from forming another poloid at right angles to the original? Shouldn’t they be able to form a spherical shell around the center? (Of course this would depend on the exact behavior of the particles, involved, do you have a quantitative description of this?)”

                  In my mind it creates its own stability by particles ( energy ) not being able to transit faster than C ( this in a way is what maintains the pendulum swing ) . They want to – but cannot and hence resists change or decomposition.

                  “I still cannot see how this situation would arise as a mass collapses under its own gravity, at some point the particles making up that mass would have to convert into the kind you describe making up the hole, while preserving those particles information. (The particles you describe making up the hole would have to be able to store electric and color charge as well as the velocity and angular momentum of the mass and other properties.)”

                  I don’t know how to respond this insight, other than to say in brief, that if a solid sphere was collapsing at huge velocity, albeit somewhat rarified with a very thin dispersed volumetric density – I suppose a much cleverer person than I with a math imaging modeling resource may be able to find such a mechanism. To create a smoke ring has to start with an aperture of some kind is my understanding.

                • When it comes to matter entering a black hole, you can think of it like a meteor hitting the earth. As it gets closer to earth it moves faster and starts to heat up in our atmosphere. The light escapes earth, but the meteor itself is absorbed. The situation with black holes is similar, but more severe.

                  A large amount of energy escapes the black hole, but remember the C^2 term in the energy-mass equation. Only a small portion of the energy falling into the hole (The gravitational potential energy.) has a chance of escaping as photons and not all of this manages to escape, but this is more than enough to make active black holes exceedingly bright objects.

                  I can understand the stability of the poloid if it were a perfectly still and symmetric object, but this is like a pencil balanced on its point, hard to achieve and not something you’d expect to see in nature.

                  for one thing, black holes can spin, quite fast. A poloid like this cannot have any spin since that would mean changing the speed of the particles within it, which as you note cannot be done. And there are also asymmetries; if another mass approached the black hole it would distort the gravitational landscape (as all mass (Well, energy) does.) I think this would mean the poloid would have to distort, but I do not know enough of the relevant physics to be able to say for sure.

                  The formation of smoke rings is shown here: http://tealco.net/blasterphysics.gif.jpg Basically a fluid moves through an aperture and is disturbed, curling around on itself. This happens all the time, but if the aperture is nice and symmetrical you get not a less stable ‘smoke sausage’ or more random eddy, but a ring.

                  It differes in two important respects from your poloid. Firstly the particles are moving not around the larger diameter of the ring but around the smaller diameter. (In your video not left-right but up-down.) Secondly, the production of said ring is a definitely asymmetric process; the flow is in one direction only.

                  However now I wonder, if the angular momentum of the infalling mass was conserved, could it be converted entirely to your particles? In this case a nonrotating black hole could not exist; as a star collapsed it would spin faster and faster, converting into massless particles that rotate at the speed of light. I am not at all confident in this model however, especially since I believe it predicts that objects without the correct angular momentum would collapse into something else.

                • “but what prevents them from forming another poloid at right angles to the original?”

                  I can only surmise that it is because the poloid is organized and stable, the unidirectional flow of the material/energy cannot be easily shifted once initiated. The G1 gravity has a pattern of behavior with no other force or influence on it to vary it.

                  You also mentioned collisions of black holes – that indeed would throw up some interesting ideas! The 2 poloids are stable and at equilibrium. We introduce another one – so how could they possible combine? And after the collision have only 1 without mutual destruction? The poloids may in fact be tiny things the size of a tea cup! Until someone very clever and experience with modeling tools how could we put a size to such a thing and realize how to quantize gravity it is producing an scale it. It may the size of an atom, or even smaller, or the size of a massive sun? Surely someone who has in depth knowledge of photonic behavior for instance could create a mathematical hypothetical case. In this case determine how much gravity it is producing. Then with that information put a scale on it.

                  Maybe when 2 BH collide there is only one winner and the smaller one has its equilibrium upset and ripped apart and the 1D window closes?

                • Well, on the size issue, the poloid, being made of light speed particles would have to be exactly as big as the event horizon, any smaller and it would collapse into a singularity. This is why I wonder about what would stop a ‘poloid’ forming like a spherical shell. However, angular momentum would stop a stable poloid from changing, I was foolish not to have noticed this. (The poloid would not be able to change the direction it spins any more than the earth would be able to suddenly start spinning north-south instead of east-west.)

                  I do not think it is possible to have ‘one winner’ when black holes merge, since if they are constructed the same, they will both affect each other. (And there’s always the case of two identical black holes meeting.) The challenge would be how the ordered poloids would combine to produce a third, larger, ordered poloid. (Traditional black holes can merge like drops of water roughly speaking, lacking any complex internal structure.)

                • Manubo: 1. If we are currently becoming flatter, surely a good mathematician can calculate 2. When we will be flat. 3. He will also be able to inform us when that state would occur. 4 Based on our current rate of change. 5. Then with that number we would know how far we are away from the manubo centre 6. Then all other kinds of information would be possible such as, the manubo diameter, and with that information how flat the 2D ribbons are going to be?? – We may be only a few atoms thick! – or less!

                • Two objections arise then to this. A flat universe is one with no energy in it to warp spacetime. (The energy of space itself doesn’t count, and I believe it could also contain as much energy as you want, provided that energy was perfectly evenly distributed.)

                  This means our universe, which has energy in it as particles, would have to be infinitely large to achieve this state. So no matter how fast it expands, no finite, or even increasing expansion rate will ever achieve this (Though it will get close.)

                  We know the universe’s rate of expansion is increasing and that, if nothing changes, it will become immense, tearing apart even atoms in a ‘big rip’ I don’t think this will give us a flat universe but it’s an interesting way to go.

                • “We know the universe’s rate of expansion is increasing and that, if nothing changes, it will become immense, tearing apart even atoms in a ‘big rip’ I don’t think this will give us a flat universe but it’s an interesting way to go.”

                  You stated earlier that the matter is becoming diluted – can you explain this again please……..

                • The universe, as far as we are aware, contains a finite amount of energy. (This is at least true for the observable universe.) We can call this quantity x. Energy is what causes the curvature of spacetime, which means that to find the average curvature of spacetime in the universe we can just divide the total amount of energy in the universe by the total volume of the universe.

                  If the universe were static then this ratio would be constant. (And the universe would be unstable, with gravity pulling everything together.) However space is expanding, this doesn’t mean just that an existing volume of space is stretching, but that the universe is getting ‘new’ space; (If a given unit of space were just stretching either we wouldn’t notice or things would get very weird.)

                  This means that in any given volume of space there is less and less matter as time passes. Galaxies are all (mostly) moving away from each other, you need a bigger and bigger volume of space to contain them all. Thus the average energy density of the universe is falling, the universe is becoming more empty, more dilute.

                  If we run time backwards we see a universe where energy density increases, where there is less and less space, until eventually we end up with a universe of no space and infinite density, the big bang. (Of course something may happen early on in the universe so it didn’t start out like that, it just appears to, but the model works rather well up to very close to the universe’s birth.)

                • “If we run time backwards we see a universe where energy density increases, where there is less and less space, until eventually we end up with a universe of no space and infinite density, the big bang. (Of course something may happen early on in the universe so it didn’t start out like that, it just appears to, but the model works rather well up to very close to the universe’s birth.)”

                  Yes but in my thinking we run temporal time backwards – the event & historic temporal time. Maybe we have 2 conditions of enlargement: the natural and original separation of the material + the production of a space which existed before hand which was already expanding rather rapidly using our ‘c’ yardstick. And maybe because we only consider the regular spacetime where material ( energy ) exists as a visible volume.

                  Thanks – I lost track on this for a moment. Your use of the term New Space directs me back to my original intuitive meaning it difficult to be separated from this idea and function of the primary framework as I referenced in the book. I am going to try and make contact with some people at CEA fundamental research and see if I can get some opinion regards the output field dynamics ( assuming there will be some ) , ref the 2 fields of a TBH + central densificaton. To see if any of this makes any sense.

                  Is the notion of ‘New Space production’ a regular scientific realization or is it ignored as being hypothetical – or not even thought of? I know Newton thought of it as the absolute space – which Einstein discredited. Thanks

                  Yes I agree with your comments ref the prof experiment – however from his arm muscles point of view there is less gravity ( although I totally agree with your statement ). His arms are fooled into thinking there is less gravity. The same value of gravity exists but they have to do less work = less energy required. So if one ( presumably ) was to ignore the ability of the dynamic forces in this experiment and consider only the change in condition from his arm point of view the gravity has diminished. I also understand that in order to experience this so called virtual loss of gravity his arm has to remain part of the dynamic system and hold the end of the rod.

                • The creation of new space is a well accepted scientific fact, though not usually worded in that manner. Most of the time you will hear of the expansion of space because this is nice an intuitive idea. But if a given unit of space were getting larger, stretching outwards in all directions as it were you would expect the universe to become more ‘grainy’ like a picture when you zoom in too far.

                  Of course my wording could be taken to mean that there are